Jon Ronson and Adam Buxton

[WarriorN]

I'm astounded at this "bonus episode" of "and things fell apart."

Absolutely everything Glinner has said has been proven.

This is a twitter link, I imagine it's on bbc sounds

x.com/glinner/status/1769152705333699000?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

What a great post. Now that’s actually podcast worthy not that stuff quoted below

And to say I think yes, they will be

Exactly. We need people who will ‘go too far’ in telling the truth when most people collude with currently fashionable lies.

Fascinating! Thank you

x.com/glinner/status/1769147993406550164?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Ronson is beneath contempt anyway. I am, however, bitterly disappointed in Adam Buxton, the subject of a thread here on this topic not long ago, when we discussed one of his recent podcasts and found that an encouraging number of reviews had been left calling on him to engage his brain.

Sadly, it appears he hasn’t. I can’t bring myself to listen to this latest farrago of nonsense and insult, but it sounds as though he’s actually doubling down. It’s especially upsetting to me because I found his podcasts very comforting after my parents died, and his many conversations about grief were thoughtful and grown up. It’s an eternal mystery to me that so many adults, otherwise capable of rational thought, have so utterly lost their minds over this issue.

@MrsOvertonsWindow I am 100% in the fuck no camp, but sadly I think taking that approach as an individual parent with your child's school or Dr has been (and probably still is) more likely to result in social services involvement than a pause to consider things further.

Hard agree. All the 'well, you were right, but you didn't say it nicely enough' is infuriating. A massive part of GI taking hold has been the cynical utilisation of early female socialisations to 'be kind' (as well as following the Denton's approach of forced teaming and under the radar). It wouldn't have mattered how nicely 'no' was couched.

Unfortunately I very much recognise the tactic of being told 'yes, you were right all along but it's the WAY you said it I didn't like.'

I do wonder, under a constant barrage of insults and threats, losing work, being ambushed on Newsnight, and being completely abandoned by friends like Buxton, ronson, Bill Bailey et al exactly how else @Glinner was supposed to go about things?

I was much more subtle and much less fiery and found myself being screamed at by members of my own family. I was told I should just keep my head down. A pal of mine told me not to go to our local Pride parade because she was so worried about what i might say. And as more and more evidence turns up, they all know I am right but cannot bring themselves to admit they were wrong so they criticise my approach.

Yes, that's right, putting a link to THE WPATH files on my Facebook profile was too aggressive, I should have just said nothing? Hmmmmmm......

Completely understand and I'm so sorry that this is where you are I wan't trying to disparage your actions as a parent.

I was reflecting on Glinner and his activism and recognising how long it's taken for public fury to match his. And so regretful that "be kind" demands stopped so many from recognising the intrinsic abusive nature of telling children their bodies are wrong.

Things won't change for him whatever happens. He won't get back to a position of widespread acceptance and respect. It's gone way too far for that, and I don't believe Ronson and Buxton will ever have any regrets. That's not to say I don't now think they are dicks, having once enjoyed their work.

Things won't change for him whatever happens. He won't get back to a position of widespread acceptance and respect. It's gone way too far for that, and I don't believe Ronson and Buxton will ever have any regrets. That's not to say I don't now think they are dicks, having once enjoyed their work.

I think the only thing that will make Ronson and Buxton regret their behaviour is if they face consequences for it. I don't imagine they will.

I also agree that Graham had the misfortune to be right too early, and that he has therefore drawn a great deal of hostility, and will continue to draw hostility, for his rightness. One of the reasons he is so angry now, and often says things many of us regard as intemperate, is that he and his wife were directly and viciously targeted by trans activists, resulting in huge consequences both for his marriage and his career.

Contrast with JK Rowling who, despite having been targeted with death threats and attempts to damage her professional career, has sailed on regardless. She is simply too wealthy and too successful for any of the attacks on her to have any impact. (This is why she is such an asset of course.) And although she has become bolder of late, for the most part her weapon of choice is the witty put-down. Graham is much more aggressive, because, for obvious reasons, he isn't able to create that sense of distance between himself and the subject that Rowling has.

Having said that, I think it's quite likely that 20 or 30 years hence, when people look back on this and think "what the fuck happened there?" Graham will be lauded as one of the leading figures in the resistance. But it will probably be too late for him to enjoy it.

It's fascinating watching two Seriously Reasonable Guys, (after all they must be seriously reasonable because they never raise their voices and always head tilt through their seriously reasonable questions right guys?), trying to find a way to call a man shrill and hysterical.

🎯

Wonder if Buxton and Ronson recognise themselves here at all...

How many times has it been that those people who said the blunt things others won’t say have forced open the door to get where we are now?

I recognise I am in a privileged position where I had not had to put anything personally out there when it was considered hate to even say ‘these ‘women’ are not just like me’ for a simple example. I am thankful for people who have been ‘immoderate’ because it has paved the way for us to get to this point. Even people who I don’t agree with on much but who call out patterns and state it clearly are getting my thanks.

We have got this far through a collective effort that needs all voices. Diminishing Graham’s contribution because ‘he went too far’? Fuck off.

Two men utterly unconcerned about the removal of women's safety. How effing lovely.

These men are beneath contempt. Sadly I agree that, although Graham Linehan will continue to be vindicated, he will never get his career or his family back. It is heartbreaking.

I've only listened to the clip cant bear to listen to the whole thing. Ronson would have been that guy on the Titanic wearing a headscarf, pretending to be a woman to be first on the lifeboats. A man without morals, a coward, who actively set out to destroy someone braver than him. I despise him. The TRA kids at demos I can forgive, daft as brushes and deluded but Ronson? He knows exactly what's going on but career came first. Awful, awful man.

Did they say how far Glinner should have gone in their opinion? I.e whether there is a concern to be addressed?

As I understand it GL has had friends & colleagues privately agree but refuse to support in public, and other friend apologise for not backing him. I think that would probably make anyone a bit obsessive tbh. I think lots of people recognise the inner fury of knowing you’re saying something that other people agree with, but won’t say themselves.

What really sticks in my throat is that they knew TRA were targeting glinner and his family. They knew

and their response was not to publicly condemn the threats and stand by him but to tell glinner he should be quiet

I'm not disappointed in Ronson. He is so transparently dishonest and disingenuous. With his faux naivety and whispered delivery he has always made my skin crawl.

I don't know how much longer he can get away with the ' who me? I'm just asking questions ' shtick. But he seems determined to squeeze the last drops out of it.

And then use him as a passing bit of speculation on a podcast

Nice

What a pair of nasty back-stabbers, completely fake friends. I realised that he'd been abandoned by most of his friends, as well as having been criticised by some. Using their platform to do him down like that is beyond contempt.

Preference falsification in all its infuriating and understandable reality.

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies , Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

Additional commentary on preference falsification from Cass Sunstein. It's outlined here in a discussion of Sunstein's How Change Happens.

80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/cass-sunstein-how-change-happens/