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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

693 replies

RethinkingLife · 02/03/2024 10:16

A bracing read. I am still in a state of some despair about how long this will take. As several people have observed, in the last 10 days, the BBC (in common with other media) disseminated unscientific propaganda that male galactorrhea is better than mother’s milk, repeatedly called a deeply disturbed killer a woman while disdaining to acknowledge the alternate reality as a cat, and has publicly reprimanded Justin Webb for plain speaking that was probably helpful to many listeners.

What will it take to bring bigoted employers to heel? Part of the answer is time. During the past decade, the trans lobby has been stunningly successful in selling false analogies to HR departments: that separate toilets for men and women are like racial segregation; and that insisting people can change sex is “gay rights 2.0”.
Lazy, power-hungry HR managers and staff working in “EDI” (equality, diversity and inclusion) pronounce that the arc of the moral universe is bending towards denying sexual dimorphism, and relish imposing their will on others.

Imagine you’re an HR professional belatedly wondering if you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on the whole sex-gender thing. You might turn to A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by two barristers, Nicola Newbegin and transwoman Robin Moira White.
But that might not save you from serious missteps. The first edition, published before the binding Forstater judgment, enthusiastically endorsed the faulty lower court ruling. The second grudgingly acknowledged that yes, gender-critical beliefs were protected, but claimed that “manifesting” them — letting others know you held them — wasn’t.
Even before the recent string of judgments to the contrary, that was obvious nonsense. The law about freedom of belief expressly includes “manifestation”. And anyway, it takes but a moment’s thought to realise that the law can’t possibly concern beliefs that are never manifested, since it can’t reach inside the privacy of our heads.

At bottom, the mindset of the narcissistic identitarians joining in workplace witch-hunts is that of the Crusaders, who made converts at the point of a sword. They do not respect other people’s sovereign consciences, nor accept that their belief system is just one among many. And like the Crusaders, they need to be consigned to history.

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

Adding in a good read about the Meade and Phoenix rulings:

Restoring sanity takes time | Helen Joyce | The Critic Magazine

This article is taken from the March 2024 issue of The Critic. To get the full magazine why not subscribe? Right now we’re offering five issues for just £10. It’s nearly five years since I met Maya…

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
RedToothBrush · 04/03/2024 19:40

Datun · 04/03/2024 17:49

Social contagion is not a thing,

lol. Are we going to get that explanation of it being 'something in the water', when 70 kids in one school year all came out together?

What was it? Given that they all live near each other, all the mums must've drunk from the same source?

Transactivists everywhere are in a panic over Helen Joyce turning her attention to online influence and contagion.

No one, but no one, dadjoke, is buying what you're selling. It hasn't been bought for bloody years. You're behind the curve quite remarkably.

You see that, over there? That's a cat.

See what you've got in your hand?

It's the bag.

How come we get the issue in schools where all the transkids appear mysteriously in the same friendship group?

It was obviously just random. And its pure coincedence these kids all have the same interests.

I mean, come on.

If someone is going to say theres a study in America from an organisation which has skin in the game and makes a lot of money from this tells us that theres no bias in it we should all just nod along like blind mice? Right?

Its not often I say that first hand evidence is better than a study, but jesus christ, this is one of them.

You'd have to be living on the moon not to be aware of the problem.

I mean, if social contagion wasn't an issue, why would social media be the battleground to win that it is? I mean social media is actively being used to recruit people as allies and to demonise people for not using 'polite' pronouns and for trying to intimidate people into believing that a woman is a social construct.

Clearly Dadjoke thinks we are THAT stupid.

WickedSerious · 04/03/2024 21:33

Britinme · 04/03/2024 13:12

@DadJoke what's your evidence for your assertion that social contagion is not a thing?

His warts are tingling.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/03/2024 21:43

Funny how social contagion is recognised as a factor in eating disorders, in self harm and in suicide to take 3 examples. Particularly but not solely with teenage girls. But oh no, couldn't possibly be a factor for teenage girls suddenly believing their pubertal bodies are wrong and that changing sex will fix them.

Unbelievable the dangerous nonsense transactivists spout about children.

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2024 21:56

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/03/2024 21:43

Funny how social contagion is recognised as a factor in eating disorders, in self harm and in suicide to take 3 examples. Particularly but not solely with teenage girls. But oh no, couldn't possibly be a factor for teenage girls suddenly believing their pubertal bodies are wrong and that changing sex will fix them.

Unbelievable the dangerous nonsense transactivists spout about children.

Funny how it's recognised that social media is driving dissatisfaction with body image because of unrealistic representations due to airbrushing, filtering and perfect 'instaworld' but this is completely and utterly removed and separate from the contemporary parallel universe of Transworld which exists in its own special bubble.

My point stands about parallel social trends being Highly Relevant and part of the contextual political and social background for transactivism.

Social Contagion IS parallel social trends.

JanesLittleGirl · 04/03/2024 22:22

JanesLittleGirl · 02/03/2024 22:32

I await your prognostications with bated breath.

Oi! @DadJokeDadJoke

I have been bating my breath for two fucking days. When are you going to get back to those who asked about discrimination in the workplace?

JanesLittleGirl · 04/03/2024 22:23

JanesLittleGirl · 04/03/2024 22:22

Oi! @DadJokeDadJoke

I have been bating my breath for two fucking days. When are you going to get back to those who asked about discrimination in the workplace?

Sorry, @DadJoke

JanesLittleGirl · 04/03/2024 23:00

Oh! Tumbleweed.

Helleofabore · 05/03/2024 06:56

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/03/2024 21:43

Funny how social contagion is recognised as a factor in eating disorders, in self harm and in suicide to take 3 examples. Particularly but not solely with teenage girls. But oh no, couldn't possibly be a factor for teenage girls suddenly believing their pubertal bodies are wrong and that changing sex will fix them.

Unbelievable the dangerous nonsense transactivists spout about children.

I typed a post saying just that, and then lost it!

There are studies out there recognising social contagion and how it works. But now we are to believe that there is what? No such thing as social contagion? No that it miraculously doesn’t apply to what is happening to children, or how this is impacting our children’s lives?

It just goes to show how deeply entrenched some beliefs are. When social contagion is desperately denied on an issue that many were/are desperate to have removed from having the stigma of mental health issues. Of course, the mental health issues must be actively dismissed. But just like the concept of changing sex doesn’t reflect material reality, and gender identity is a philosophical belief only, some people can deny social contagion all they like. That denial doesn’t reflect material reality.

When you watch a group of friends declare trans identities one by one so that 5 out of 7 have trans identities over a 6-12 month period, you realise that some people can deny material reality all they want, but one day they will need to own the harm of their denial.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2024 08:07

Dadjoke will just double down. To do otherwise would require an admission of harm or neglect.

Helleofabore · 05/03/2024 08:17

I am not sure that he will double down. I am surprised to see the evangelistic dismissal of the social contagion issues.

I believed dadjoke once when he declared he was fighting to ensure children had access to the highest standard of health care. Yet, actively dismissing something such as social contagion the way that he has seems to be completely at odds with seeking best care and more along the lines of outsourcing critical thinking ability to embrace an ideological stance.

I would like to think that reading and listening to these WPATH files will make dadjoke, and others, finally start asking the questions that we all are asking. FFS. Country after country is now releasing statements saying there is such weak evidence. Even the Nederlands is rereviewing the papers their own country’s medical staff released that became the accepted protocol. How can any person proclaiming they are wanting best health care standards not start questioning ?

Unless that wanting best health care standards was just a superficial ploy and the real motivation was just to scold women who disagreed with him. Let’s see.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2024 09:23

Helleofabore · 05/03/2024 08:17

I am not sure that he will double down. I am surprised to see the evangelistic dismissal of the social contagion issues.

I believed dadjoke once when he declared he was fighting to ensure children had access to the highest standard of health care. Yet, actively dismissing something such as social contagion the way that he has seems to be completely at odds with seeking best care and more along the lines of outsourcing critical thinking ability to embrace an ideological stance.

I would like to think that reading and listening to these WPATH files will make dadjoke, and others, finally start asking the questions that we all are asking. FFS. Country after country is now releasing statements saying there is such weak evidence. Even the Nederlands is rereviewing the papers their own country’s medical staff released that became the accepted protocol. How can any person proclaiming they are wanting best health care standards not start questioning ?

Unless that wanting best health care standards was just a superficial ploy and the real motivation was just to scold women who disagreed with him. Let’s see.

Dadjoke has made up his mind. Nothing little women say will make him reconsider.

WelcomeMarch · 05/03/2024 09:26

I've tended to assume DadJoke was an evangelical transman.

However.
My twopennorth on the 'no, nothing to see here, not social contagion' is that a friend's child and stepchild have apparently both come out as trans.

thatsthewayitis · 05/03/2024 10:03

To the women here who wrote/write m/m fanfiction; why m/m instead of m/f? (I assume you're straight).
To me it seems as if girls are disappearing themselves and it's just so sad to see. Maybe I'm wrong so I'm asking to understand....

OldCrone · 05/03/2024 10:56

Dadjoke seems to have gone quiet since I asked him to explain what he thinks transgenderism is.

I've asked him before, and he's never been able to answer.

He also can't explain what a gender identity is, what it means to 'have a gender' or how either of these things are linked to sex, or why it is important for trans identifying people to change their bodies to 'align with their gender identity'.

Interesting that he has no answers to the most basic questions about this ideology he supports. Although none of the other people who support this ideology can answer these questions either.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/03/2024 12:30

Such an important conversation. Time after time we see men salivating at the thought of "taking down" an articulate woman like Helen Joyce, especially in relation to safeguarding children.
Time after time transactivists insist that women on here are right wing "fascists, bigots, pearl clutchers", all out of touch for believing that trans ideology is age inappropriate for children and causing actual harm. Despite their evident contempt for women, certain posters spend an inordinate amount of time dismissing, belittling and denying facts, science and research to the extent that some even laughably deny social contagion in teenagers exists.

There's a reason they're here.
We see them.
We know what they're doing
We're saying no.

UtopiaPlanitia · 05/03/2024 12:50

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/03/2024 12:30

Such an important conversation. Time after time we see men salivating at the thought of "taking down" an articulate woman like Helen Joyce, especially in relation to safeguarding children.
Time after time transactivists insist that women on here are right wing "fascists, bigots, pearl clutchers", all out of touch for believing that trans ideology is age inappropriate for children and causing actual harm. Despite their evident contempt for women, certain posters spend an inordinate amount of time dismissing, belittling and denying facts, science and research to the extent that some even laughably deny social contagion in teenagers exists.

There's a reason they're here.
We see them.
We know what they're doing
We're saying no.

Women saying 'No', particularly older women saying it, infuriates a lot of men and (sadly) some women. They don’t like it when the service humans have opinions and won’t do what they’re told. The non-compliance generates excessive anger 😏

I’m reading Victoria Smith’s 'Hags: The Demonisation of Middle-Aged Women' at the moment and she describes this phenomenon incredibly well.

BezMills · 05/03/2024 15:09

are they in some cases getting flashbacks to not getting their pears cutted up correctly by their mothers when they were 3?

NotTerfNorCis · 05/03/2024 15:33

She describes it as both arousing and disgusting.

From what I remember, in proper context, she didn't mean it was arousing to her.

I think what this person did in taking photos of her phone, searching for the story online, uploading both photos and fuller screenshots of the story and setting the mob on her, was both stalky and hypocritical. In uploading the full story to social media, the snooper showed he didn't see it as illegal or even immoral - or he wouldn't have shared it.

As I understand it, the story was about the HP characters at sixth form age (e.g. 16 - 18). It's not what all the TRAs are pretending it is.

DadJoke · 05/03/2024 15:41

@JanesLittleGirl Sorry, real life got in the way - my daughter was sick. She's OK now.

@OldCrone no, I am not the person to inform you what "transgender" means. There are plenty of sources for that. The definition of gender reassignment in law will do just fine for this purpose. It's in the EqA.

As an aside, if Harry Potter fan fiction turns you trans, Joyce is taking a big risk judging by the amount of research she is clearly doing. Totally worth it, though.

On to Joyce's article and her comments on discrimination.

There have been a number of cases recently where employers have taken a high-handed attitude against employees which do not take account of Forstater and really do not follow process. They relate more to discrimination against people with gender critical beliefs rather than undermining transgender people's rights in their work place.

She criticises A Practical Guide to Transgender Law, which was based on the law as it then stood before Forstater ETA, for reflecting the law as it stood before the Forstarter ETA. She then confuses "manifesting" a belief with being able to proselytize at work - an error in law. Obviously, when your beliefs come into conflict with work practices which impact your belief, then "manifestation" becomes important.

"In order to count as a “manifestation” within the meaning of Article 9, the act in question must be intimately linked to the religion or belief. An example would be an act of worship or devotion which forms part of the practice of a religion or belief in a generally recognised form. However, the manifestation of religion or belief is not limited to such acts; the existence of a sufficiently close and direct nexus between the act and the underlying belief must be determined on the facts of each case. In particular, there is no requirement on the applicant to establish that he or she acted in fulfilment of a duty mandated by the religion in question"

It's the objectionable manifestation of the belief which can cause discrimination.

"Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."

It's this last clause which is where the conflict arises.

The Forstater ETA set a very low bar for Grainger, and gender critical beliefs meet this threshold, as is lack of belief in structural racism and refusal to marry gay people.

"To establish that holding particular beliefs in respect of transgender persons per se falls foul of the Grainger test part V, it now appears to be necessary to shown that the belief is an equivalent of Nazism or totalitarianism, such that transgender persons should be not afforded the general rights and protections of other citizens"

Employers are obliged to make reasonable accommodations for people with protected beliefs. Excluding a category of person who is permitted in space because of your beliefs would not be a reasonable accommodation. For example, forcing trans women to use men's bathrooms in the work place because another employee is gender critical would be discrimination against transgender people. A reasonable accommodation would be, for example, to provide a single user cubicle for anyone to use, including the transgender person.

No one can be forced to provide their pronouns at work, but not using the correct pronouns for colleagues and service users can be discriminatory (Mackereth). The fact that someone has a belief does not give them the right to treat other people in a manner that conflicts with their employer’s legitimate requirements and the law.

From Forstater “This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’ trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment that apply to everyone else"

Forstater stated "she would respect people's identities and pronouns in a professional setting," and "She accepted, however, that her views should be kept out of the workplace unless there was a specific invitation to talk about it and that she wouldn’t bring other materials into the office" or the judgment might have been quite different. How beliefs manifest is restricted.

Sex Matters agrees "Avoiding creating a hostile environment for a transgender person at work or as a customer or student is clearly a legitimate aim for a policy."

However, every ET or court case is highly dependent on circumstances.
We need more case law on what is legitimate and proportionate, and what constitutes direct and indirect discrimination.

This can put employers in a very difficult position. If, for example, your diversity policy supports LGBT people, and one of your employees in a private capacity pubically posts legal but homophobic or transphobic comments based on a protected belief, and people threaten to boycott your company, you are in somewhat of a bind.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/03/2024 18:21

😂 Fancy seeing Stonewall law being pushed on here.

Hasn't seemed to work that well for Garden Court Chambers, Social Work England, Westminster Council, the Arts Council, the Open University, University of Essex, the Green party & a number of other organisations believing the lie that it's OK to remove women's rights and to harass, bully and discriminate against women and men for knowing that sex is binary and it's impossible to change sex. All of them have looked spectacularly incompetent & unpleasant in court displaying their illegal "beliefs".

But you crack on dadjoke with your beliefs, minimising the harm being done to children and vulnerable women.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2024 18:43

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/03/2024 18:21

😂 Fancy seeing Stonewall law being pushed on here.

Hasn't seemed to work that well for Garden Court Chambers, Social Work England, Westminster Council, the Arts Council, the Open University, University of Essex, the Green party & a number of other organisations believing the lie that it's OK to remove women's rights and to harass, bully and discriminate against women and men for knowing that sex is binary and it's impossible to change sex. All of them have looked spectacularly incompetent & unpleasant in court displaying their illegal "beliefs".

But you crack on dadjoke with your beliefs, minimising the harm being done to children and vulnerable women.

The same Dadjoke who says there's no problem with medically induced male secretions to that is supposedly breast milk when even the creeps at WPATH were saying it went too far and was unethical is STILL pushing Stonewall law desperately despite the legal ruling saying it's hokem that is unlawful.

is there anything Dadjoke wouldn't defend?

Helleofabore · 05/03/2024 18:49

Let's see if Dadjoke has any comment at all about the WPATH report and what is defended in that document and what is not.

OldCrone · 05/03/2024 19:38

No one can be forced to provide their pronouns at work, but not using the correct pronouns for colleagues and service users can be discriminatory (Mackereth).

By "correct pronouns" do you mean accurate pronouns referring to someone's sex or pronouns which someone would prefer you use instead, which do not accurately refer to their sex and are therefore not correct? Newspeak is so complicated sometimes.

The fact that someone has a belief does not give them the right to treat other people in a manner that conflicts with their employer’s legitimate requirements and the law.

Quite. The fact that someone has a belief that they have changed sex does not give them the right to treat other people in a manner that conflicts with their employer’s legitimate requirements and the law.

DadJoke · 05/03/2024 19:45

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/03/2024 18:21

😂 Fancy seeing Stonewall law being pushed on here.

Hasn't seemed to work that well for Garden Court Chambers, Social Work England, Westminster Council, the Arts Council, the Open University, University of Essex, the Green party & a number of other organisations believing the lie that it's OK to remove women's rights and to harass, bully and discriminate against women and men for knowing that sex is binary and it's impossible to change sex. All of them have looked spectacularly incompetent & unpleasant in court displaying their illegal "beliefs".

But you crack on dadjoke with your beliefs, minimising the harm being done to children and vulnerable women.

Sex Matters will be surprised to hear that they are pushing Stonewall law!

I did not refer to Stonewall, looked at the original cases, the EHRC statutory guidance and the EqA and answered the question with regard to trans rights and discrimination I was posed on this thread.