Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

[RethinkingLife]

A bracing read. I am still in a state of some despair about how long this will take. As several people have observed, in the last 10 days, the BBC (in common with other media) disseminated unscientific propaganda that male galactorrhea is better than mother’s milk, repeatedly called a deeply disturbed killer a woman while disdaining to acknowledge the alternate reality as a cat, and has publicly reprimanded Justin Webb for plain speaking that was probably helpful to many listeners.

What will it take to bring bigoted employers to heel? Part of the answer is time. During the past decade, the trans lobby has been stunningly successful in selling false analogies to HR departments: that separate toilets for men and women are like racial segregation; and that insisting people can change sex is “gay rights 2.0”.
Lazy, power-hungry HR managers and staff working in “EDI” (equality, diversity and inclusion) pronounce that the arc of the moral universe is bending towards denying sexual dimorphism, and relish imposing their will on others.
…
Imagine you’re an HR professional belatedly wondering if you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on the whole sex-gender thing. You might turn to A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by two barristers, Nicola Newbegin and transwoman Robin Moira White.
But that might not save you from serious missteps. The first edition, published before the binding Forstater judgment, enthusiastically endorsed the faulty lower court ruling. The second grudgingly acknowledged that yes, gender-critical beliefs were protected, but claimed that “manifesting” them — letting others know you held them — wasn’t.
Even before the recent string of judgments to the contrary, that was obvious nonsense. The law about freedom of belief expressly includes “manifestation”. And anyway, it takes but a moment’s thought to realise that the law can’t possibly concern beliefs that are never manifested, since it can’t reach inside the privacy of our heads.
…
At bottom, the mindset of the narcissistic identitarians joining in workplace witch-hunts is that of the Crusaders, who made converts at the point of a sword. They do not respect other people’s sovereign consciences, nor accept that their belief system is just one among many. And like the Crusaders, they need to be consigned to history.

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

Adding in a good read about the Meade and Phoenix rulings:

Re: the substack linked above.

I've been reading fanfic since 2008. I think there is increasing pornification; that is, I am increasingly seeing violent sex acts included in the tags or referenced in the text, as well as characters with gender identities.

I also agree insofar as a focus only on m/m fiction and absorbing all the time this idea of m/m romance as central and the female characters as side characters and the focus all the time on men and the primary depiction of love and romance as being between men, is not great for women. This isn't only a fandom problem: though most of mainstream fiction takes for its romance an m/f plot, the focus is also often on male characters with little plot development and focus on the female characters, so to some extent the messaging from a broader culture is similar. But the marginalisation of female characters and a focus on males is in itself detrimental to the female audience.

However:

and though anal was sometimes tagged, it wasn’t common It was absolutely common (she talks about 2017) in m/m fic. She might be trying to suggest this about m/f fic - which I don't read that often; my impression is that it's still not that common to have anal sex in m/f romance fic - but if so, it's not clear from the article at all, which had only just talked about m/m. In m/m fic, handjobs, blowjobs and anal sex are absolutely common in fic containing sex acts. I have seen criticism (from gay men) about anal sex being too prominent in slash fic as a sex act vs. their own real experiences.

But the denigration of families, and glorification of friends, is more than artefactual. Unlike the source material, Harry Potter fanfic tends to lean into the anti-parent vibe, with many storylines in which teenagers and young adults cut off parents if they don’t see things the right way, and thrive as a result. I don't think this is so antithetical to its source material. By virtue of being set at an isolated boarding school, HP favours friendship relations over parent-child relations. Parents become largely insignificant. Harry obviously doesn't have parents and doesn't have much of a parental relationship with the Dursleys; however, Hermione, who apparently has a normal loving family, is increasingly cut off from them as the series goes on. She starts spending her summers at least partially with the Weasleys from GoF. In DH, she wipes her parents' memories altogether. It may not be anti-parent in the no contact sense, but it is a narrative in which parents are largely irrelevant.

By virtue of being set at an isolated boarding school, HP favours friendship relations over parent-child relations. Parents become largely insignificant.

I think that's true, though I think you could argue that that has always been a feature of children's fiction. Look at Famous Five, or Swallows and Amazons, right up to Lemony Snicket or HP - you need to take adults out of the running for the most part, in order to have adventure/jeopardy in the story. Though the lack of parents/ adults in those stories was circumstantial rather than a rejection or denigration of families. Obviously the sexual element wasn't a feature of those books!

I'd bow to your superior knowledge of fanfic @Precipice . But I would suggest there's a world of difference between writing that explores a child's view of the world and development where their parental figures are absent / in the background while the child explores and develops - classic in children's literature.

In contrast this is a harsh simplistic narrative with little merit that is deliberately contrived to position parents and families as dangerous to children. A narrative that is repeated to children by countless transactivists in real life?

The importance (and sometimes superiority) of 'Found Families' rather than of families that characters are born into has been an increasingly common trope in TV and film from America over the last couple of decades and, as such, it’s occurrence in fanfic has increased too.

Often it’s a function of the setting for the TV/film property e.g. work-based sitcoms like Parks and Recreation, or youth-orientated sitcoms like Friends. And often it’s a feature of the fictional universe because the characters are outcasts from mainstream society e.g. X-Men, Dark Angel, Supernatural, Stargate Atlantis, Marvel Cinematic Universe or Harry Potter.

However, this Found Family/Family of Choice discourse is very common in fandom circles and it has a strong influence on nerdy, isolated teenagers finding commonality of interest and acceptance online for the first time in their lives. For these kids, of course these online people are superior to their boring family who don’t understand them or their fandoms/interests, and who expect them to do boring tedious chores, study for exams, live in the real world etc.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FamilyOfChoice

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FoundFamilyViaWork

Found families are reality for many young and not-so-young people. People often move away from their parents, extended family and hometowns to go to uni or for work, and this compounds over generations. Some then, if they are lucky, find a close friendship to belong to.

@UtopiaPlanitia thanks for the l8nk to tv tropes, gosh it has been a long time since I visited the site. It is a treasure trove, you could lose hours in there, easily.

Gosh, losing hours of time on there has absolutely never happened to me 😉😬

I went to safeguarding training and learned that it's now a known strategy for abusers to use information they obtain from working with children to then prey on them online. So, for example, a teacher will overhear a student saying she likes a particular chat room, and he knows she was born in Hanoi. So he creates a fake child persona on that chat, and says, "I'm in Hanoi and I don't know any other fans of (whatever website is about) IRL!!" Which then enables him to identify the child's avatar, and lure her into a "friendship" which in time will become "romantic" and he will convince her to share pornographic images and videos of herself. Or using knowledge of a child's chronic illness, or family situation, or whatever - using that interface between real life and online life to manipulate.

At first i was chuckling at all these men fondly believing that stalking and photographing a woman they hate on a train, would somehow uphold their argument, not hers.

'Stupid TRAs look unhinged and creepy targeting women' sort of thing. Par for the course.

But the persistence of TRAs like Dad-Joke and mishy in trying to discredit her has made me think that the concern is probably much more specific. And that women like Helen, turning their attention to the nasty underbelly of fanfic and exposing all the TRA connections must be silenced.

If she's going to plumb those depths with her usual forensic research and insight, no wonder they're all worried.

From Helen's article

The trans lobby, and some of the more high-profile trans YouTubers, tell children that if their parents won’t go along with their claimed identity, they should abandon them and turn to their glitter family.

And

I got a ton of email on this one from parents whose daughters are into fanfic,” Holly wrote, “including one who saw the connection between his daughter identifying as a man and her obsession for the first time. It’s amazing to me how big of a thing this is and how little the average person knows about it.”

And TRAs sooo want the average person to keep knowing fuck all about it.

I really really think its true.

She's looking at fanfic, but it could just as easily be japanese anime. Or gaming communities.

There's a really closed, narrow set of interests going on. And going on to an obsessive level. We even refer to many of these interests having a 'cult following'. For good reason. It is to the exclusion of all else. It is all encompasing and emersive. Whole new worlds of possibility. Sci-fi and Fantasy Fiction. But the key point is the OBSESSIVE element.

The common theme is they involve living in a fantasy world which offers promise and opportunity and the escape from real world and reality. It offers an opportunity to disengage from the real world and to do it with other people. You can be someone you aren't and can reinvent yourself in multiple ways.

Its not something that people who are well adjusted and happy with their real world life do to this degree. Loneliness and not being understood by others are a theme. If you are engaging in person with others DOING something, you can't live in a fantasy type world that doesn't exist. Note the group MOST affected are not the Sporty Social Group at schools who have activities to do. Nor do they tend to be in the Popular Kids Social Group. Nor kids that have to go out to work from an early age.

Look at the parallel trends in our society, which I think give you something of an incite into the why of some it. Its correlation rather than causation, but I do think you would be a fool to ignore them.

We have the known narcissistic trend on social media of the rise of Main Character Syndrome. At a time where children are indulged and parents struggle to say no and give children boundaries.

We have a rise in Incels who are basically disaffected youth.

We also have a rise in apparent issues with neurodiversity. Is this is real rise? Or is it a consequence of lack of real world stimulation? I find it FASCINATING that one of the best coping strategies for ADHD is having a walk or run - its one I know a few people with ADHD use and DS's school use it on a occasion. And its a time where kids do less exercise and walk less than ever before. Again in parallel we are seeing more and more addictive gamification of life generally where you get dopamine hits from TV, Internet and Gaming. Even the way social media works is gamified - the refresh function where there's constantly something new. There's a question as to whether this is triggering something in the way our brains develop.

We have increased social isolation and demographic destruction of communities trends too. Young people have even less opportunies to meet in real life. Restrictions on budget, mean more can't afford to go out and meet in clubs and bars in the same way they did. And younger kids aren't able to go out due in the same way to over protective parents or a simple lack of places to go. Gentrification and smaller family units also play a role in the lose of family and established community participation and importance.

We have high youth economic inactivity or unemployment. Its known this causes political destablisation and carries the risk of social unrest in society when this hits about 25%. (Look at the numbers for 18 - 25 year olds not in education).

We have a trend where children are less likely to maintain the standard of living of their parents due to economic pressures and shrinking opportunites (numerous causes for this). Societies which have been facing this for some time, have higher mental health problems generally which may be down to greater socio and economic pressures placed upon them.

THEN look at the reaction to cutting off the internet or restricting access to under 16s. Is it proportionate or rational? Or is it more like the reaction of an addict?

What is always the first advice people on here give to parents who have kids expressing interest in being trans? To check their social media usage.

I don't think the issue is purely about social contagion.

I wonder if Joyce will also look at possible links to online anime obsessions?

Worth noting that anime is mostly japanese and therefore reflective of Japanese culture and attitudes.

Fan fiction doesn't turn people gay. Fan fiction doesn't turn people transgender. It's the most ridiculous conflation of correlation and causation - laughably wrong. Social contagion is not a thing, detransitioning is rare.

"My transgender son reads fan fiction they enjoy" does not mean "Fan fiction they enjoy has turned them transgender."

She says HIV rates are 7 times higher than similar rates in the base population, based on a tiny sample size, but even if that was the case, so what? Is she also arguing that men shouldn't be gay because of a higher rate of HIV?

None of the quotes make any causal link - it's all correlation.

Honestly, based on this shoddy and obviously flawed article, I'd respect her more if she had been reading it for pleasure for two years, rather than research.

But then, she doesn't think transgender people should exist (happy or otherwise), in part because they require "special accommodate" so every bit of "research" will be coloured by this view.

www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/its-catching/202110/the-girls-who-caught-tourettes-tiktok?amp

@DadJoke what's your evidence for your assertion that social contagion is not a thing?

@Precipice this is so interesting as my experience, since 2008, is with m/f and f/f HPotter fanic and it's so different!
Anal was common back in 2010-15 in f/m, not at all in f/f. Today it's semi-choking and 'daddy kink' (ugh) in m/f that are 'smut' heavy. Again you don't find this in f/f so it must be societal and influenced by porn.
Families are big and given lots of love if you like to read m/f dramione fanfiction (draco-hermione). Neville Longbottom and Weasley fanfic. f/f doesn't have this focus unless it's one parent or there is a baby .
F/f does like age gap romance which is a bit different. There is also a big emphasis on women's interests, backstory; they are fully developed characters. So sad that women write themselves out of being important writing m/m.
If you want your eyes opened at how corrosive current m/f sexual culture is read a f/f fanfic.

Here is a summary.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-undermines-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-claims/

https://statsforgender.org/social-influence/

Nothing to see here, move along people.

So DadJoke's evidence is an article that consists mainly of denials by WPATH and written by an author who identifies as non-binary. Riiight.

I agree with you about the increase in pornification - I’m having to be really thorough in my reading of tags these days so I can avoid things I dislike or find unpleasant.

I’ve been reading fanfic since the early 2000s and, in recent years, the tone has most definitely changed in general and changed a lot in some fandoms. Kink elements in stories didn’t used to be so widespread (there were some ficcers who 'specialised' in it but they were the exception and considered weird), there wasn’t as much body modification fic (mpreg, genderswap, ageswap, omegas, transing of characters, torturefic etc.).

In my experience, Tumblr was where this sort of stuff really took hold and then made its way to AO3. Livejournal had dedicated communities for particular types of fic and writers tended to post in relevant (sometimes invite-only) communities for an audience who was interested in that type of story and a normie could easily avoid it. But on Tumblr the more explicit stuff wasn’t corralled and it spread like wildfire, and because Tumblr is quite a visual site there was/is an overlap with explicit fanart hosted on both Tumblr and DeviantArt.

Discord has also had quite an effect on the style of fic writing: a preference for ficlets, instead of longfic with character development and plot, and a preference for more extreme sexual or violence elements that a group of writers roleplay together while 'writing' the story. As for podfic, I never listen to it so I haven’t a handle on what’s going on in those communities.

As an adult living through these changes in fanfic, I found them shocking and unpleasant so I really do worry about adolescents being exposed to this stuff without the maturity and life experIence to help them contextualise it and realise that this isn’t always how it used to be.

The links in the article will point you at the evidence, including a study with more than 27,000 participants, not a self-selected internet poll directed at gender critical parents.

I'd like to know more about what you think 'being transgender' is.

Is it being literally 'born in the wrong body'? Until recently, this is what organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids asserted. They now deny ever having said this.

Is it a fetish? It now seems undeniable that this is the case for most older male transitioners as well as some younger males. It's obviously not the case for children or female transitioners.

Is it a reaction to trauma, sexual abuse, poor mental health or internalised homophobia? GIDS staff have suggested that issues such as these are at the root of trans identification for most of the young people who were referred to the clinic.

Or is it, in many cases, social contagion? Groups of friends "coming out" as trans simultaneously would suggest that there is an element of this.

If it's none of these, what exactly is it?

Social contagion is not a thing,

lol. Are we going to get that explanation of it being 'something in the water', when 70 kids in one school year all came out together?

What was it? Given that they all live near each other, all the mums must've drunk from the same source?

Transactivists everywhere are in a panic over Helen Joyce turning her attention to online influence and contagion.

No one, but no one, dadjoke, is buying what you're selling. It hasn't been bought for bloody years. You're behind the curve quite remarkably.

You see that, over there? That's a cat.

See what you've got in your hand?

It's the bag.

I feel like multiple women's insights into the female experience are being denied by a bloke, even though we're the ones with lived experience of fanfiction, of being a teenage girl, and of being a teenage girl with trans-identifying friends.

Oh wait, that's because that's what's happening!