Indian meal with new group turned into big argument about gender

[PotteringPondering]

Went for an Indian meal this evening with a group I've recently joined, to get to know new people.

One person started sounding off about how 'so-called feminism' is really a mask for hatred and bigotry against trans people. I kept quiet for as long as I could, but I couldn't hold back from challenging it. It turned into a big argument in the restaurant, with most of the group sitting in a stunned silence.

I know I'm not the first here to tell a story like this, and I won't be the last. But I'm back home in an empty house, feeling rather shaken by it all.

Well done, OP. It takes courage to step up and say, "That's not right." And most people are perfectly well aware that humans can't change sex.

It's quite common for those not in the know to equate feminism with terfism. Sad really, as feminism is around pushing against all gender barriers, partriachy and ensuring equal rights and opportunity. Terfism, just is obsessed with such a small part of the community, who mostly go by unpassed, and upholding the values of the past, which leads to even more partiachial control.

Feminisim is very different from Terfism. Very different indeed. It just reinforces boundaries and barriers to a more progressive society.

What is super positive though is that the new generations of young women see Terfism for the lie it is, and live very differently. That is the hope!

If the "values of the past" are protecting children from lifelong medicalisation, protecting women and girls safe spaces and allowing women and girls equal opportunities in sport, protecting them in refuges and prisons when they are at their most vulnerable, and not brainwashing children with ideology instead of biological fact, then I must be a huge fucking TERF.

Speaking up to a school mum at a 6 year old party that's she was glad about brexit wouldn't have got us back in the EU.

I have spoken up as a remainer in appropriate circumstances. Or ranted more like. I seem to remember stomping out on my brexit voting IL family members with the words "easiest trade deal in history my arse".

Good to speak up, not good, after expressing your views, to get into a long, heated debate at what’s meant to be a social thing and people don’t know each other well.

👏👏👏

💯

Oh, definitely that's an awkward time to speak up! I thought you meant generally, rather than about a specific instance.

Oh dear @ZenNudist . I had a blazing row with my English in laws about Brexit too. It was 2019 and they were swept up in the 'good ole Boris ' wave. Since then we've had a non aggression pact on the issue. I suspect they have regrets ( Irish passports acquired ) but I will leave it now.

On the trans issue , everyone I speak to has great compassion for people with gender confusion. But I have yet to meet anyone who thinks we can change our sex as opposed to 'living as a man/woman'. Well done @PotteringPondering . I bet the rest of the company were in silent agreement with you. It's a horrible feeling though isn't it? I always feel 'soiled' somehow after a big row. Like it triggers my Catholic guilt , losing self control etc. Then much later I think ' No. Sod it I was right!' - And so were you @PotteringPondering .

It’s so important to talk about these things - particularly if you don’t agree. Increasingly people are just retreating to their respective camps and not engaging with anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their views. I think while it is laudable to encourage people to set boundaries and cut out toxic people, I think it’s sometimes taken to such extremes that people cut people out who don’t agree with them on everything. Then they go and join an echo chamber and are totally shocked when e.g. a right wing party gets more than 10% of the vote. Everyone needs to keep taking in a respectful way. It is so important.

I have an aunt who is anti vax, who believes in conspiracies related to an attempted hijack of the world by the world health organisation. This is all she hears within the community she lives in. If we don’t tell her that we don’t agree, this will be the only point of view she will hear. She only consumes media of that sort too.

Mishy says that feminism is about pushing against gender barriers and suggests that is a good thing but at the same time is full on TRA saying that we should be putting people in boxes and making sure that they adhere to sexist stereotypes.

Mishy says that male who likes stereotypically feminine things must be a woman, feminists and those Mishy deems terfs say that it doesn't matter what you like, you can like what you like and don't have to change. We say that the aforementioned male isn't any less of a man because of this, Mishy says that he must conform and to like those things must declare himself a woman.

Mishy sees no contradiction in Mishy's view and thinks that we are the regressive, restrictive ones.

Sad really, as feminism is around pushing against all gender barriers, partriachy and ensuring equal rights and opportunity.

You missed a bit, Mishy: equal rights and opportunities FOR WOMEN. The female kind, not the 'living as but not being one'.

The whole 'living as a woman' is all about gender stereotypes, because in reality the only way to live as a women is to be female. 'Living as a woman' according to gender ideology is to have a feminine name, use womens spaces (disregarding the comfort of other users) and dress in a feminine way. These are the criteria used when requesting a GRC, which just goes to show the misogyny in that law.

Gender ideology is also patriarchy on steroids: womens voices are ignored and shut down, male voices are upheld and revered.

OP, I was the same as you, ranting against life long friends because they didn't see the harm in letting men play in womens sports. I have researched and can now put forward the arguments in a quiet and civilised way and they noemget it. Some still are a bit twaw, except prisons and all but one sports. None are full on gender ideology anymore. So just keep it up.

A few people have asked whether the ranting person was a man or woman. He’s a man, which made his generalisations about what 'really' motivates feminists especially annoying.

Update: a few people have since told me he has a reputation for expressing ideas in an aggressive way. I probably will stick with the group, especially now I know everybody finds him difficult. Knowing a little context makes quite a difference. Of course, at first meeting you know none of this.

Thanks so much for kind and supportive comments 😊

Gender ideology is patriarchy on steroids: womens voices are ignored and shut down, male voices are upheld and revered.

So true.

It's quite common for those not in the know to equate feminism with terfism.

Mishy, I think you know that’s because genderists (who have the loudest voices on this issue) describe normal everyday feminists as terfs — Trans Excluding Radical Feminists.
It’s a genderist expression. I wouldn’t call myself a terf, purely because trans-identifying people aren’t foremost in my mind, women are. But I don’t mind if anyone else calls me that.
What you call terfism is simply everyday feminism.

Sad really, as feminism is around pushing against all gender barriers, partriachy and ensuring equal rights and opportunity.

As others have pointed out, feminism is about defending women’s rights. Genderism aims to demolish women’s rights, by demanding their extension to include men.

Well done for saying something.

Although, it did make me think of this (culture war of the past)

Well done. I’ve had similar happen amongst a group of friends. We have avoided the subject since but I reckon this man may try to engage you in arguments again. I’d be ready to shut him down so you can get to know the group.

A few people have asked whether the ranting person was a man or woman. He’s a man, which made his generalisations about what 'really' motivates feminists especially annoying

colour me utterly fucking shocked that a man with no skin in the game mansplained feminism & gender ideology

the fucking nerve of these people!!!

Not surprised to hear it was a man.

Not only because he felt entitled to say what feminism is, but I have been to social events in the past where some man, who wasn't employed to come and be the main attraction, had turned what could have been an easy going catch up into an ordeal because they will not stop talking (lecturing), not interested in what anyone else has to say, and remains oblivious to everyone just looking more and more alienated.

Although the worst part is when they eventualy leave, as more often than not there is some poor woman going home with him, no doubt to be lectured to into the night.

Anyhow OP. Good that other's have let you know he is a known problem. But a bit sad that they know he is and he is still in the group and nobody has felt able to ask him to tone it down. Particularly at an event intended to introduce "newbies" to the group.

That is funny because it never occurred to me that it wasn’t a man!

And noone called him out for being a man and telling women…

I had the same convo back in 1986 in a pub in Glasgow. Group of students - our ‘man’ was a wannabe trade unionist (posh lad, never had a job, oft seen in the SWP stand outside the student union). I think my winning reply was ‘aw shut your face’

Good for you. Every time. it goes unchallenged it gets worse. You're the winner.

Well done Pottering. Tea and Tunnocks for you (and yes it never occurred to me either that this was anything other than a man).

I know how easily I end up in these conversations. Simply saying you’re trying to get tickets for the Cursed Child end up defending woman’s rights. The group I was with (bar the ranter) were taking about lost wee souls feeling uncomfortable in macho environments. I brought up Barbie Karsdashian and Edinburgh Rape Crisis and the were in disbelief until I actually pulled up newspapaers on my phone and even then they were texting people to check if it was true (we're in Edinburgh). The ranter wasn’t having it and I left it with I don’t tell Jewish people what isn’t antisemitism and I don’t tell black people what isn’t racism so maybe don’t tell a woman what isn’t feminism. They weren’t happy but their social justice warrior credentials couldn’t let them tell me I was wrong publicly, they just settled saying I didn’t know what I meant.

Well done OP. You never know, you may have provided some food for thought for some of the others that were there.

Thanks for standing up for women and girls - it's so important. Standing up for the truth isn't always easy, but it is right. You have my respect and I've never even met you 👏