Indian meal with new group turned into big argument about gender

[PotteringPondering]

Went for an Indian meal this evening with a group I've recently joined, to get to know new people.

One person started sounding off about how 'so-called feminism' is really a mask for hatred and bigotry against trans people. I kept quiet for as long as I could, but I couldn't hold back from challenging it. It turned into a big argument in the restaurant, with most of the group sitting in a stunned silence.

I know I'm not the first here to tell a story like this, and I won't be the last. But I'm back home in an empty house, feeling rather shaken by it all.

It’s incredibly difficult to speak up, isn’t it, but I wouldn’t be able to stay silent either. And because it’s such a tense subject for us, it’s incredibly difficult to stay calm and sound confident and justified.

Sorry you’ve been through that, OP. Do you think it might be easier now, if it happened again?

I think op has been quite clear one of the group just started proclaiming loudly that feminism is all just cover for anti trans bigotry.

It's so ridiculous. I think I'd have started with 'so you're saying Emmeline Pankhurst was motivated by hatred of those who in her day would have been called cross dressing men and women rather than genuinely wanting votes for women, which we've only had on the same terms as men for less than 100 years in this country ?' But it's not as easy in real life to stand up against what is quite clearly hatred of women having the right to think for themselves . Well done OP, you aren't one of those who just stand by and let obvious ignorance and misogyny go unchallenged

I think op has been quite clear one of the group just started proclaiming loudly that feminism is all just cover for anti trans bigotry.

But there must have been some build up to create an opportunity to start ranting about bigotry.

It would be socially very odd if the conversation was all about whether people prefer plain naan or peshwari and someone, out if nowhere, got on a transactivist soapbox.

Lucky you not having met people like that. I've met a few who absolutely would just start off with 'feminism, it's all rubbish isn't it?' and so on.They must be loving the fact they think it's socially acceptable to be anti women's rights now

Good on you Op for speaking up. The person who started the mouth off against feminism deserves the blame for the argument. If it is a group where there is some onenew, it is not good manners to start by railing off "feminists' bigotry". I personally would use the terms women's rights rather than feminism as far as possible (because feminism is a far narrower, divisive and unappealing ideology these days).

Well done. I hope it would have given the bystanders some thought. Hearing one person say it out loud encourages others to do the same.

I’d guess this, or at the least it got them thinking.

You are coming down from fight/flight so you are bound to be feeling discombobulated. Hopefully you feel better this morning. But anyway try and reframe it that you did a useful and brave thing (and you didn’t start it anyways).

No it wouldn’t, it’s just conversation - it’s a current topic along with COL, Gaza, protests etc

You surely don’t spend entire dinners talking about the food?

@PotteringPondering Thank you for your courage. The current social climate and the likelihood of attack from others makes what you did a considerable bit of everyday heroism. It’s hard to stand up for things that matter in the face of that sort of aggression. I applaud you.

It could easily come up from someone mentioning in passing someone they know or someone in the news who identifies as trans.

This happened to me when someone in the group mentioned that one of the girls in the school she worked in had decided she was a boy. She said that all the staff had been told they had to refer to her as 'he'. She thought it was absurd that she was expected to refer to a girl as 'he'. I agreed with her, then one of the other people went into a rant about how if 'he' had decided 'he' was a boy then that was all there was to it, and we should all do what 'he' wanted.

The oldest person there (in her 80s) said 'how ridiculous, it's not a choice', and then I steered the conversation onto something else, as I realised it could become unpleasant. The person who made the initial comment had no idea how controversial her comment was.

Good for you for voicing your opinion although most people tend to stay out of these conversations as they know it will lead to arguments, I would have found it difficult to say quite aswell but I probably would have…..it’s like we are being bullied into staying silent
Anyone (in my opinion) who brings up a topic of conversation like this at a dinner table is an asshole as they know it could lead to arguments

Anyone (in my opinion) who brings up a topic of conversation like this at a dinner table is an asshole as they know it could lead to arguments

I'm not sure that's true. The conversation I described was about 5 years ago, but even now, I think a lot of people would still think it uncontroversial to say that people can't change sex.

I agree. This is how this insidious ideology has been allowed to flourish in the shadows.

I know it's an overused analogy here, but it really IS a scenario of the Emperor's New Clothes.
EVERYONE know the whole thing is bonkers, just about everyone feels the same, but the collective group hypnosis/hysteria/fear of speaking up, keeps people ducking below the parapet in order to be "the one" to take a stand and signify themselves as a "bigot".
It's sad but a lot of people find it easier to blend into the sea of wokeness because they don't have the courage (like YOU OP - well done!) to "out" themselves.
It's no consolation receiving messages of support AFTER the fact. Where are these people when the argument is actually in full swing?

Hopefully as more brave people speak up against this madness, it will give others the courage to join their voices to the few sane people that seem to be left (although privately they think the same).

Good for you OP! These don't sound like people you really want as pals anyway! To use another analogy, it would be like being the only sane person in a lunatic asylum.

They say silence gives consent, the person you were arguing with will think only you disagreed, that all the rest were on their side.
Well done for being the one brave enough to speak their mind

The majority of people don't say anything.

It's noticeable, every time I post something gc on social media, that people quietly support me but often won't say anything in public.

Sorry, by 'quietly' I mean I get pms and so on.

Book club by any chance?

Probably they regard the ranty one as ever-so-slightly off their trolley and they don't want to antagonise him/her/them/fae/it/zem in case there's an embarrassing scene.

It would be brilliant if everyone could just laugh in these people's faces and give it the respect it deserves.
That would definitely take the wind out of these twits sails.

I hope it gets to that point.

Laughing really is the correct response. I wish I could arrive at a point where that was possible.

I’m way off though. Having corrected someone teaching DEI recently about sex being the protected characteristic and not gender, I felt incredibly flustered, even though it didn’t turn out to be a big deal and there were no repercussions.

I think part of the problem is that it doesn’t come up often enough verbally to become normal. I can argue endlessly in writing, having spent a huge amount of time arguing with activists on Twitter.

was it a male or female ?

If someone starts on the mental then it's normal to tactfully change the subject. I remember a few conversations with actual brexit supporters where I just ignored them as best as possible. Much better than schooling someone makes you just as obnoxious as them.

You seem to be suggesting the OP should have put up with listening to someone spouting off and not challenged what she disagreed with? Why?

I had this a few years ago. In my case, the person I was arguing with has recently contacted me to apologise and has changed their opinion. They said they knew an old school transexual and were thinking of them when they were arguing with me. However they've come to realise how mad the current situation is.

Do you still think so, now that those Brexiteers have succeeded in taking us out of Europe and caused such damage to the UK?

If you don't speak up, people think you agree with them.