Reason #1006 why women’s sport is different: Paris Olympics: Athlete’s plea to let baby stay in village is refused

[BettyFilous]

Paris Olympics: Athlete’s plea to let baby stay in village is refused.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c7f644d1-82f6-401d-93b1-625b30c2f459?shareToken=0ee1421564257282ed7ef4f5ede1f855

Clarisse sounds like a terrific athlete and very committed to her sport, returning to competition 5 months after giving birth. What a shame they don’t take the needs of mothers into account when designing the athletes’ village. I hope she does well and her Olympic experience isn’t diminished by having to stay off-site.

EmotionalSupportViper
Forgot this bit...

Obviously this Clarisse wants to continue to feed her child. The point is that she is being denied her choice.
She can continue to bf her child at night. She just can't do it if she chooses to stay in the village. The child doesn't care about being in the village, Clarisse does. A man would not be in this situation, but you have to remember that some competitors who are mothers or fathers choose to stay offsite anyway. It's not a given that the village is where the mothers will want to be, although I agree is that it should be an option.

I don't care if Clarisse is asking for something a bit awkward to accommodate.

These fuckwits let men into women's sports, taking women's records, medals and sponsorships.

Absolutely nothing a female athlete might demand will ever be as egregious as that.

I have done it once and am currently breastfeeding my second child (age 2) to sleep now
It's normal, and more common than people think!

Going by my own experience of breastfeeding a toddler, if she stops for a week when her toddler is already down to a bedtime feed, she'll stop producing. It's unlikely she'll be able to express, with anything less than hospital grade equipment, if at at all. Pumps are very poor at simulating a baby or toddler's suck, so many women can't express milk, even if they can successfully breastfeed.

I was extraordinarily lucky in being able to produce huge volumes of milk in response to a pump during the newborn period, but when I experimented with a handpump two years later while still breastfeeding a toddler, nothing came out. I was absolutely producing milk, but the pump.was never going to get it out.

I hadn't noticed that you were the only poster. It simply struck me that there were several posts in a similar vein. Your subsequent posts have answered my questions. I understand your viewpoint.

I think Bella wants to deliberately misrepresent what I said. Nowhere have I said a mother must continue to breastfeed or that stopping would be a "heinous crime". I have repeatedly said a women should not be forced to stop, and yes, a temporary stop can lead to the unintentional end of breastfeeding. I have also said repeatedly that the child's age is irrelevant as it is an issue faced by many mothers in competitive sports. Mothers petitioned to be allowed to bring nursing infants to the Tokyo Olympics including Ona Carbonell, Alex Morgan and Aliphine Tuliamuk.

Also the reason I mentioned guidelines (not in UK so wasn't NHS but strangely enough most guidelines are similar) was because you seemed to think it was strange for her to be feeding a two year old. I am fed up to the back teeth of people who seem to think breastfeeding is strange or unnatural. I am fed up of people commenting negatively on how long a baby is breastfed for.I was questioned while pregnant, when my babies were less than 24 hours old and on and on and on until I stopped with each of them. It was relentless. A woman should never have to justify her decision to breastfeed her baby. I never came across something similar for those who don't breastfeed. Even when goaded into commenting on somebody else's choice, I didn't and simply said it was my choice to feed my baby how I was). I only fed my first for a year but grew a thicker skin for my second (still less than the guidelines so I must think myself a criminal).

Nowhere have I said a woman shouldn't go on holiday if she chooses.

It should be the mothers choice and she should be fully supported in her decision, not be forced to make a decision because the alternative is too tricky.

I apologise for misinterpreting you, but I think I had good reason.

Can you let me know why you quoted the NHS guidelines?

Clarisse is not being forced to stop bf-ing at night. She can do so. She just can't do it in the village because there is no suitable accommodation, which we have all agreed there should be.

She could alternatively have chosen to take this as a good time to gradually stop bf-ing, but she wants to continue because it's important to her. There will be a day nursery so she can play with her daughter in the daytime as well as snuggling up in the evening in her offsite accommodation.
Yes, a break in breast feeding can lead to a cessation of production, but some mothers carry on producing for six weeks after stopping. And stopping the breastfeeding of a 2.5-3-year old is fine. Some women do keep gf-ing their toddlers, but those children aren't what you would call nursing infants.

What if Clarisse's judo bouts were scheduled at the same time as her daughter's nighttime feeds? Should she demand that the competition times be changed in order to enable her to bf? Would she withdraw from the competition? She wouldn't do either of those things, she would make other arrangements for feeding her daughter - or change the feeding timetable. She would know weeks if not months in advance what time her bouts will be and could adapt accordingly without distressing her toddler.

OvaHere
I didn't say Clarisse's demands were egregious, I said her case wasn't. In the article, it says that a British archer had to express 80 bottles of breast milk before the 2021 Tokyo Olympics because her baby - which she thought she was going to have to leave at home - was entirely dependent on mother's milk at the time. (At the last minute, children were allowed in.) That was genuinely a dilemma about competing or mothering. Clarisse's dilemma is breastfeeding at night versus staying in the village.

Textbook.

You're missing the point. She's being asked to make a choice that a male athlete wouldn't have to, for lack of provision. Some of us think that's not ideal. I don't understand why you seem so invested in arguing that it's not a problem, or that she is in some way being selfish - that seems to be heavily implied.

Yes, there are work arounds. Yes she can stay outside the village and some people choose to do that. But there might be benefits to her performance from staying onsite for example,we can't know, and its a choice that the other athletes have that she doesn't.

For some of us, its the principle here that's important, regardless of how much aggravation she is or isn't suffering.

I have twitted to understand what point you're making. It seems to be that 'because she's a mother with a child in tow (leaving aside the argument over the necessity of bf-ing a toddler), she shouldn't expect the same choices, and if she does, she's a bit selfish'? If Ive misunderstood and that's not the case, what are you saying?

It all seems so 1950s. It's the same underlying assumption that kept our mothers and grandmothers stuck at home (yes I'm being hyperbolic to make a point, #notmymum etc), that mums should make sacrifices for their kids that dads would never be expected to, because that is a woman's lot in life. We gestate and birth therefore the sacrifice and responsibility is ours as well.

If that's not what you believe, why argue so vehemently that this mother's choices aren't important and she should suck it up?

I have tried , not twitted. Doh.

Ok, thanks for telling me why you quoted the guidelines. Ignore the repeat of that question. I asked because they didn't support what I thought you were saying, ie that children must be breastfed (by those who can, obv) as long as possible. I had queried whether it was essential in my first post, all the guidelines I've seen seem to agree that after 2 years old it's optional.
I don't find breastfeeding weird. I think it should be more acceptable to do it in a quiet corner of a cafe, for example, and I strongly disagree with mother and baby feeding rooms in big shops or venues being rebranded as family rooms.
My best friend breastfed her first son until he was 4.5, but stopped earlier with the second one. Much like you - perhaps it's a recognised pattern. I don't think bf-ing a toddler or preschooler is weird, I think it's optional. If the mum thinks it's worth continuing, great.

I've explained why I asked about stopping bf-ing to go on holiday in another post.

Exactly. The Olympic organisers have to plan adapted and specialist accommodation for the Paralympics. It’s not as if IOC has no experience of building accessible accommodation or meeting the needs of other groups. On that basis this seems to be a weird blind spot. More diversity in the upper echelons of IOC might help them see the bigger picture. 🤷‍♀️

MissLucyEyesBarrow
You're going to have to explain to me the relevance of that cartoon strip

crunchermuncher
Thanks for at least attempting to understand my stance, but I still believe you have got the wrong end of the stick.

I actually said that parents have to make sacrifices. Parents give up smoking, stop swearing, change their working hours or jobs, take jobs they hate or even give up careers they love for the sake of doing what they think is best for their children. She is giving up the atmosphere of the village - at nighttime only.

Any parent of a dependent child of any age is in the same position with regard to living in the Olympic Village.

I gather that what you are saying is that whatever choice a mother makes in relation to her children, whatever age they are, she should be supported. I don’t agree with that as a blanket statement, though efforts should be made to fulfil reasonable requests. Staying in the Olympic Village is a unique experience. She wants that experience and she wants to breastfeed her child at night. She doesn't need to do either, she wants to. They are both perfectly reasonable wants, but they are not needs. The IOC's refusal, on the grounds that there is no suitable room, is not unreasonable in her case. Mothers of babies and younger children are a different story and would have a stronger claim on my sympathy, especially if they are single mums.

It is ridiculous that nobody has thought of making any provision at all for the purpose of enabling babies and very young children (up to a certain age) to stay overnight with a competitor parent. This lack mainly affects single mothers more than those with involved partners, or fathers in general. And it is all of a piece with the IOC’s lack of consideration of women. There should be a minimum amount of suitable provision for mothers (and in theory, fathers) of nursing infants. Special rooms in the nursery complex, or perhaps adaptable accommodation, or just a preparedness to stump up for offsite accommodation if there is excess demand that year. Hopefully the LA 2028 architects are taking note. The IOC is awash with cash and could easily subsidise the additional cost for poorer host countries in the future.

Clarisse talked about the benefit to herself of the bf-ing routine. To my mind, that is a valid argument. She is perfectly entitled to think of the effect on her competition chances. (In previous posts, I emphasised the benefit to her because other posters were trying to make it about the welfare of her child.)

Her accommodation should be being paid for by the IOC or the French judo federation. If she is having to pay for it herself or through a personal sponsor, then it's unfair on her. She’s an athlete representing her country at the Olympics and they should put her up.

She won’t be living in the athletes' village, which is a shame for her, but she won't be the only one, and the day nursery itself is in the village.

She and her child will be fine. I don't think that's telling her to just be grateful for crumbs.