Reason #1006 why women’s sport is different: Paris Olympics: Athlete’s plea to let baby stay in village is refused

[BettyFilous]

Paris Olympics: Athlete’s plea to let baby stay in village is refused.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c7f644d1-82f6-401d-93b1-625b30c2f459?shareToken=0ee1421564257282ed7ef4f5ede1f855

Clarisse sounds like a terrific athlete and very committed to her sport, returning to competition 5 months after giving birth. What a shame they don’t take the needs of mothers into account when designing the athletes’ village. I hope she does well and her Olympic experience isn’t diminished by having to stay off-site.

Only mothers do it. That's the point. It's not something that fathers ever do.

And it's got nothing to do with whether other mothers go on holiday or not.

EmotionalSupportViper
What's your point, genuinely? You made a choice. It's not the case that you had to breastfeed your two- or three-year-old children. We can assume that babies will be breastfed (by mothers who can, of course), but not necessarily toddlers. I find it hard to believe that any harm would come to a 2.5-3-year-old through managed weaning or being temporarily bottle-fed by another adult to whom it is close, while still seeing Mum during the day.

fedupandstuck
This thread is about a competitor at the 2024 Olympics, where the village has been built and there is nowhere suitable for this mother. They didn't think of mums when designing it, and they should have - I've agreed.
Women's pregnancy and maternity rights in sport are being developed, albeit slowly.
The sacrifice I referred to was Clarisse being out of the village.

I'm repeating some of what I said because it seems as if we are talking at cross purposes.

I didn't mention other mothers, I asked whether Clarisse herself would be a bad mother for not doing night-time feeds for any other reason (the example I gave being a short holiday). I don't think she would be, but everything you say implies that you think differently.

I have no idea why you think I'm suggesting that this athlete would be a bad mother if she was required to stop breastfeeding sooner than she wanted to, or had to express for the duration. Literally not a single comment I have made implies that in any way. I don't know which part of my posts you've interpreted to imply that. I'd love to know, as it's genuinely puzzling.

Organisations that expect women to participate equally to men should have guidelines in place to accommodate requests like this.

This is not the first competition that Clarisse has been outspoken about the needs of breast feeding mother's at. She had spoken about it time and again including when her baby was much younger...think was 9 months at the world's, and younger at previous competition s, so your argument about the age of her child/whose benefit it's for is irrelevant. Guidelines recommend breastfeeding at least to age 2 and beyond. A quick google will through up the names and stories of numerous athletes about the barriers the sports admin systems (not the sports themselves) create for breastfeeding mothers. Many of these athletes speak about how this impacted them when their infants were under 6 months. This should not be a barrier to women in sport.

Why should a mother have to chose between breastfeeding her child (no matter the age) and her career? Some mothers breastfeed to 5 and beyond. Some mothers find it important for bonding. It shouldn't be your call to dictate when she and/or child stops.

Mothers should be accommodated. A happy mother makes a happy child. A happy child makes a happy future for all of us.

Your bad mother argument is a strawman argument btw

fedupandstuck

Well, we are talking at cross purposes. We both agree that there should be provision for mothers at large sporting events.

I asked if Clarisse would be a bad mother for choosing not to breastfeed her toddler overnight for a short period. Not being required to. I asked this because the tone of some posts (not just or even mainly yours, so apologies for directing that at you specifically) was that breastfeeding the child at night was essential for the child's welfare.

I hope that's clearer.

Could you point out the posts you refer because I can't see them?

Emma Hayes has one son. His twin died in utero. She is a single parent and brings a nanny when they go away on training camps. One of her players has a child and does the same: www.chelseafc.com/en/news/article/melanie-leupolz-my-journey-continues

Man City's Demi Stokes is regularly pictured bringing her baby son to training. West Ham's Katrina Gorry brought her toddler to the official signing and brings her to most games. Lots of cute photos on the club's social media.

It's entirely possible to support mum athletes without it impacting the team.

This thread is about the non-availability of of suitable accommodation for a breast-feeding female athlete in the Olympic village. Several posters see this as an opportunity to lecture the mother. Is this FWR or have I accidentally slipped onto a DM comments section?

‘Organisations that expect women to participate equally to men should have guidelines in place to accommodate requests like this.’

Yes they should.. but we know for sure that the IOC don’t expect women to participate equally to men. If they did expect this, then men would not be allowed to participate in women’s events.

For an organisation that thinks it is fair to allow men to participate in women’s events - there is no surprise they don’t cater for women’s needs. They don’t care. They are men and they don’t give a sht about female athletes. Scandalous.

I didn't realise one of Emma Hayes' twins had died in utero. I had heard she was pregnant with twins and hadn't heard about her loss.
If you read my comment, I said:
Emma Hayes (Chelsea manager) took her twins in a push chair to training, but I hope we can all see that that was different - most of it in the open air, relatively stress free.
My objection was to the footballer who insisted her child - a baby - should go to away matches.

I also said I support an onsite creche rather than issuing day passes for kids - less stressful for all.

To believerinbiology

This is what started me off on that train of thought:

What kind of world do we live in that a woman not only has to fight for this but also even has people on this thread questioning whether a woman is right or not to breastfeed. I despair!

I didn't say she wasn't right to breastfeed or shouldn't be able to. I meant it was not a terrible imposition on her or damaging to the child if she doesn't - temporarily - whether out of choice or necessity. My instinct was correct about, though because you later cited guidelines recommending bf-ing up to age 2 "and beyond". The child is over 2. I can't see how not b-fing her or letting someone else bottle-feed her for a couple of weeks, will do her harm.

NHS guidelines say:
Breastfeeding older children
There's no reason why you should not continue breastfeeding your child into their 2nd year and beyond. You and your toddler can continue to enjoy the benefits of breastfeeding for as long as you want to.
Your toddler may also find breastfeeding comforting when they're ill or upset.

In other words, do it if you both enjoy it, but it's not essential for the child's wellbeing to do so.

NHS guidelines again (my bold):
Going back to work
If your breast milk supply is well established, going back to work does not have to affect your milk supply for your baby. You can either express at work, give your breast milk to your child's carer, or provide formula milk while you're away.

I suggested either of the last two options.

I agree that mothers (working outside the home or not) should be enabled and supported to breastfeed whenever possible and that providers of accommodation at sporting should take the needs of mothers into account.. My comments above relate to this specific case of a woman with a child who will be at least 2.5 when the Olympics begin.

theremustbecake
No, a woman should not have to choose between bf-ing and her athletic career. Staying in offsite accommodation during the Olympics is not giving up her career, is it?

I know bf-ing is about bonding, I said so. I'm only questioning whether a 2-3-year-old is only allowed to bond with its mother and not any other adult in its life.

Is that aimed at me? I'm happy to respond if it is.

Oh I know the IoC don't care about women, I'm not under any illusion about that. What they should do and what they are doing are sadly not the same! Hence this news article.

I never said it was essential. You did. A woman should have her choice supported. She should not be forced to stop feeding her child by arbitrary barriers imposed by her sporting organisation. You keep twisting people's words. Nobody has said a child should only be allowed bond with its mother FFS and not any other adult.

For many women it's not as simple as "just give them a bottle". Some women have difficulty expressing, they have to find the time to do this in advance of leaving their child and then while away to relieve engorgement. (In addition to their training/nutrition/rest plan). They may have a child who refuses a bottle. They may have to contend with hormone swings/ breast pain when they don't feed or their body adjusting to a more permanent end to feeding. I could go on and on. A sports organisation should not force a woman to choose.

Also as earlier stated she advocates for all female athletes who are breastfeeding. I have also said she and many others have been impacted by similar barriers when their babies were much younger if you insist on highlighting the current/future age of her child. What about when she spoke up previously? What if she goes on to have another child. She wants to remove unnecessary blocks to mothers in sport.

I don't understand the straw man of it not being necessary to bf a 2 year old.

The issue is that bf uniquely affects mothers. A sub category of the sex class women. This is not an issue men will ever face.

The IoC is not being inclusive to female athletes by potentially making them choose between feeding and competing (again, it's not relevant that this isn't 'harmful to the child' - and anyway isn't that a terribly low bar?). It's not about 'having it all' it's about not wanting to live in a world where the default provision for everything is what men need, and women can just get on with it.

Where women don't have to act like men to fully participate in public life in all the same ways that men do. Equality of opportunity for women and men.

I can't believe that in 2024 we're still having to justify why that should be a right not a privilege.

Sharron Davies excellent book Unfair Play goes into shocking detail about the lack of representation of women both in the IoC and the games themselves(and the audio book is on Spotify). One stat I remember is that the women's marathon only became an event in 1984! Only 40 years ago!

believerinbiology
The situation with pregnancy and maternity rights is improving, and hopefully Clarisse Agbegnenou's advocacy will help to speed up the pace of change.

I don't know how else to say that I believe in enabling and supporting breastfeeding for all mothers who want to and are able to, working in or out of the home and that I agree with making provision for bf-ing mothers in accommodation at sporting events.

What was your reason for quoting NHS guidelines about bf-ing to 2 years and beyond?

Yes, of course some breast-fed children will not take to a bottle of formula and some mothers struggle to express. Every case will be different, but in principle, it's not harmful to the child to try those options. I asked about Agbegenou's particular circumstances - single mum or not - in my first post because I couldn't see any reason why another adult carer could not take over the feeding/cuddling - that was a reasonable suggestion, backed up by the NHS guidelines.

The ideal situation would have been onsite provision for mother and child. That is not possible. She has made the choice which will enable her to continue bf-ing through the competition. She could just as well have decided that she really wanted to immerse herself in the whole Olympic village experience and therefore taken steps to help her child adjust to the change in nighttime routine in the four or five months before Paris 2024. Either choice would have been valid in this case.

Do you have an opinion on whether or not a mother of a 2.5 year old child should be able to go on holiday without her child? I think she should be, in principle.

Thank you. I would appreciate that.

If that toddler is used to being comforted at night with a breast feed, then making her go "cold turkey" will be distressing for both her and her mother.

Why shouldn't a mother choose to feed her baby as long as she is comfortable with? Perhaps this is her bonding time with her daughter - she will train long hours and possibly have less time to share with her than many parents.

The point it that everything is catered to men, to the extent of even allowing them into women's sports etc - something that allows mediocre male athletes to apparently excel. Well, only in their own minds - we all know that they are not only cheating but being facilitated by the very bodies that should be protecting the women spaces.

I don't think that Clarisse would be a "bad mother" if she didn't continue to feed her daughter, any more than I think women who bottle feed are bad mothers. They aren't. We do what we feel is best for our babies and ourselves. This isn't something anyone should "judge" for. Breastfeeding suited me and my babies - it doesn't suit everyone, and indeed many women (and many babies) are unable to breastfeed. Doesn't make anyone a "bad mother."

Obviously this Clarisse wants to continue to feed her child. The point is that she is being denied her choice.

Sorry - changed the order of a sentence and was left with "this Clarisse" - should have just been Clarisse (had had this athlete)

crunchermuncher
The IoC is not being inclusive to female athletes by potentially making them choose between feeding and competing (again, it's not relevant that this isn't 'harmful to the child' - and anyway isn't that a terribly low bar?). It's not about 'having it all' it's about not wanting to live in a world where the default provision for everything is what men need, and women can just get on with it.

How is she being asked to choose between bf-ing and competing? As I said before, if the IOC said she had to live onsite during the competition and could not have her baby overnight, that would be making her choose between her bf-ing routine and competing. She has opted to stay offsite because there is no suitable accommodation in the village. We all agree this must change, and soon. But what she is actually choosing between is bf-ing in the evening and living in the village. Lots of other athletes don't live in the village, either. Offsite accommodation might even be preferable to a mother.

It seems to me that many posters are saying that the child must continue to be breastfed, come what may. She doesn't have to be. That is where the daughter's age is relevant. Some seem horrified by the idea that a two-and-a-half year old might be weaned or fed and cuddled by someone else at night for a couple of weeks after being with her mother in the daytime. Is that what you are saying?

The "having everything" comment was in relation to being in the Olympic Village, not being in the judo competition.

I agree this uniquely affects women and that we're not just like men. The whole point of feminism for me is that we are different, our career trajectories and lives don't have to follow the male model. Our sports are just for us. Our sports kit is designed for us. Our training regimes are differently structured. And yes, we urgently need pregnancy and maternity rights in sport. I just don't think that this particular case is that egregious.

I didn't think I was lecturing anyone (I certainly didn't intend to) and I'm just one poster, not several, but since the majority opinion seems to disapprove of my comments, i deduced that you were probably talking to me.
So would you mind asking me specific questions?

I feel sick with rage. We are constantly told it infringes males' human rights if they are forced to choose between cross-sex hormones and remaining competitive in sport, so they have to be allowed to compete with women so they can beat us.

But women have to choose between competitive sport and the rest of their lives all the time! This woman has managed to do something incredible here in returning to international sport after pregnancy and birth, but the IOC couldn't even accommodate her with a private room for her and her toddler.

The men of the IOC need to fuck off.

If that toddler is used to being comforted at night with a breast feed, then making her go "cold turkey" will be distressing for both her and her mother.
Absolutely. What I have suggested is that the athlete could use the intervening months to gradually change her daughter's routine - if she decided that staying in the village was an opportunity which she could not miss.

Why shouldn't a mother choose to feed her baby as long as she is comfortable with? Perhaps this is her bonding time with her daughter - she will train long hours and possibly have less time to share with her than many parents.
She can continue - unless stopping for a short time would mean she couldn't start again on a regular basis? Genuine question, I don't know the answer. The NHS guidelines say you can restart after stopping, though milk volume may be reduced. (But bf-ing a 2-3-year-old is about bonding, not nutrition - she's not a baby.) Whether stopping and restarting is realistic in practice, I don't know. And the guidelines don't say how long a break from bf-ing is envisaged.
I think Clarisse says in the article that she takes her child with her to other competitions, there would be no point in doing that if she didn't get to spend time with her there. And there is going to be a day nursery.
Also - Dad/Granny/Auntie/Godmother - all or any of them could spend correspondingly more time with the child. Do you feel that that would adversely affect the daughter's bond with her mother?

The point it that everything is catered to men, to the extent of even allowing them into women's sports etc - something that allows mediocre male athletes to apparently excel. Well, only in their own minds - we all know that they are not only cheating but being facilitated by the very bodies that should be protecting the women spaces.
100% agree. Apart from men forcing their way into our sports categories, there is:
Funding, sponsorship, media exposure - all men, men, men.
Sexual abuse, over-sexualisation of some athletes.
Bodyshaming, mocking women for being muscular or being "fat".
Results being scoffed at and compared to men (the ones in men's competition) as if that is a fair comparison.
Fewer coaching opportunities, partly because of the lack of pregnancy and maternity rights.
And governing bodies and sport organisers obdurate refusal to accept that women's sport is real sport.

I don't think that Clarisse would be a "bad mother" if she didn't continue to feed her daughter, any more than I think women who bottle feed are bad mothers.
Good. Neither do I. I asked the question (about voluntarily stopping for up to a week) because some posters seemed to regard any break from bf-ing a toddler as a heinous crime.