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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.

369 replies

Rainbowshit · 16/02/2024 12:12

x.com/forwomenscot/status/1758462083832639848?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

Great news. We need to get digging.

OP posts:
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124
SallyLockheart · 17/02/2024 08:18

Storming ahead

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
BetsyM00 · 17/02/2024 08:20

if Judges just strictly look at the words which say "for all purposes" a man with a GRC is a woman.

Ignoring the fact that it's clearly not for all purposes since there are several exceptions detailed in the same Act, the words of the GRA are not set in stone and it is still subject to the same legal principles of interpretation as any other law.

This means that, just like every other law, it can be naturally repealed if a more recent law comes along that makes it partly or wholly redundant. The terms of the more recent law always take precedent.

For example, AFAIK the Gaols Act 1823 that set out sex-segregation for prisoners and female wardens for female prisons was never officially repealed. But Jo Phoenix explains how an industrial tribunal in 1995 that meant prisons had to review their policies on creating a mixed-sex workforce effectively abolished the Gaol Act.
https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/creation-mixed-sex-prisons-stealth

I also think it was naturally repealed much earlier when the Prison Act 1952 stated prisoners "may be lawfully confined in any prison", so in a stroke of a pen there went the law for female-only prisons.

In much the same way, the argument is that the clear use of sex defined as a man = a male of any age and woman = a female of any age according to the ordinary usage of the words in the Equality Act naturally makes the peculiar definition in the GRA redundant. The terms of the Equality Act must be looked at first, and then we see how the terms of the earlier law do, or do not, fit in with it.

And the Equality Act must use the ordinary biological meaning of sex and woman, because it simply doesn't work otherwise. The Court of Session recognised that themselves when they said all the references in it to "pregnant women" clearly refer to biological sex. And Lady Dorrian pointed out during the hearing that the single definition for woman applies throughout the entire Act - although this fell by the wayside by the time the judgment was issued, so we now have a biological definition of woman for pregnancy and maternity rights in the Act, but a second "GRC inclusive" definition everywhere else in the Act.

Lord Hope, who was Deputy President of the UK Supreme Court, once said during a case that "The best way of ensuring that a coherent, stable and workable outcome is achieved is to adopt an approach to the meaning of a statute that is constant and predictable. This will be achieved if the legislation is construed according to the ordinary meaning of the words used." And once we do that with the Equality Act, all else falls into place.

The creation of mixed-sex prisons by stealth | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies

https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/resources/creation-mixed-sex-prisons-stealth

Signalbox · 17/02/2024 08:21

The striking down of the Scot Gov Gender Recognition Reform Bill via Westminster's S35 is dependent upon Haldane, is it not?

It was basically the silver lining of the Haldane judgment.

RedToothBrush · 17/02/2024 08:30

Ooo interesting. So we get to test the legal definition of sex in the equality act and where it refers to biology (why wouldn't it, if there is a separate category for gender reassignment and explicitly exemptions for single sex provision?)

Rightsraptor · 17/02/2024 08:31

Thank you @BetsyM00 for that explanation. It greatly clarifies things for me.

I'm still going to be living in fear that this case will fail, though. It's going to be catastrophic if it does.

ATowerOfGiraffes · 17/02/2024 08:39

Pledged.
Fantastic that JKR pushed them over the initial (1mth costs) target into stretch, but also so fabulous to see so many people making donations - as said upthread, every contribution count and, in my mind, all the smaller contributions demonstrate the level of support behind this

SerotinaPickeler · 17/02/2024 08:58

I have donated more than I usually do and not anonymously for the first time. It seemed the right time to follow the example set by JKR. This is very important 👏

BetsyM00 · 17/02/2024 08:59

If the case fails we're all still stuck in the same situation we're currently in, nothing worse can happen. The GRC inclusive definition of sex from the Scottish Court of Session is only "persuasive" in England and Wales but don't forget the EHRC took part in the case to argue for this definition. It's the interpretation they have upheld throughout the UK for many years.

LoopyGremlin · 17/02/2024 09:12

I have pledged. Keep fighting the good fight.

Signalbox · 17/02/2024 09:19

If the case fails we're all still stuck in the same situation we're currently in, nothing worse can happen.

Labour making it easier for men to get a GRC will make things worse if sex in the EA means legal sex.

fabricstash · 17/02/2024 09:35

This is so sooo important and have donated

Calyx72 · 17/02/2024 10:04

Jonathan Brown (Advocate) has written about how significant and unusual this is

x.com/Broonjunior/status/1758791215191830626?s=20

Nightingalenight · 17/02/2024 10:05

Also donated, also more than I usually do, also gave my name for the first time - words are important and we must stand for what matters.

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 10:18

Just gone over £100K

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
LarkLane · 17/02/2024 10:30

This is so exciting to watch. I keep checking and reading all the encouraging messages. Really inspiring isn't it?

Small and large amounts from women and men. All managing what they can afford, and recognising how important this is for all of us. Fantastic.

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 10:33

LarkLane · 17/02/2024 10:30

This is so exciting to watch. I keep checking and reading all the encouraging messages. Really inspiring isn't it?

Small and large amounts from women and men. All managing what they can afford, and recognising how important this is for all of us. Fantastic.

I know. Even without the £70K from JKR that's still over £30K raised by the regular people in less than a day! Which shows how much people want this to go ahead.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/02/2024 10:37

Rainbowshit · 16/02/2024 12:12

Lovely to see that the majority of contributers are using their real names. A sign that the trans bullying influence is weakening.

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 10:59

MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/02/2024 10:37

Lovely to see that the majority of contributers are using their real names. A sign that the trans bullying influence is weakening.

It does seem a lot women have had enough doesn't it!

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
RoyalCorgi · 17/02/2024 11:17

If the case fails we're all still stuck in the same situation we're currently in, nothing worse can happen.

And it also means that we'll have clarity - we'll know that "sex" in the Equality Act includes people with a GRC, which means it's possible to change it. It seems unlikely, however, that a Labour government might change it - though maybe it would make them think twice about making it even easier to get a GRC.

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 12:42

Just passed £105K

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 14:01

Some people aren't happy about JKRs donation.

Ooh well never mind!

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 14:03

Oops forgot the other one

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.
RedToothBrush · 17/02/2024 14:03

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 10:59

It does seem a lot women have had enough doesn't it!

BUT BUT BUT

No one is talking about gender identity says....

DworkinWasRight · 17/02/2024 14:05

Boiledbeetle · 16/02/2024 23:30

JKR is very vocal this evening

Literally every £ counts. From each according to their ability, as a notorious TERF who believed women were oppressed due to their sex once said

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1758631568476680686?t=LTQ491GlC9olVoA2-_As8A&s=19

Absolutely love the description of Karl Marx as a “notorious TERF”.

Boiledbeetle · 17/02/2024 14:06

No surprise to see Aidan taking another dig at Magdalen

For women Scotland given leave to appeal.