Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

After 3 rounds of donor IVF I have a 99% chance of having a baby.

I assume three rounds of donor IVF means that two rounds didn't result in a successful pregnancy, why would a third round now miraculously have a 99% success rate when the first two failed?

I am now pondering the world in which there are no sex classes? I think there will be many scientists that will be rather surprised.

Or maybe it was that there are no courses about sex….

That would presuppose that the donor had a 99% chance of getting pregnant themselves within three attempts. They don't.

I suspect we may be seeing a misunderstanding of cumulative probability. I've seen 1/3, i.e. 33%, quoted as the probability of pregnancy after one cycle of IVF with donor eggs.

You don't work out cumulative probability across repeated cycles by adding the individual cycles' chances of success together, but mathematical literacy in this country is very low.

Did you get the 99% by multiplying 33% by 3 (rounds)?

That's not how statistics works.

It's a sad fact but let's be clear - there isn't even a 99% chance of 'having a baby' on the day a woman in her 40s gets a positive pregnancy test.The communication that's been given to @PP82 is really worrying.

It's a live baby or your money back. The donor produces a much larger number of eggs than a normal cycle and the embryos are genetically tested prior to transfer. It's an 80% chance of success on first attempt.

It's a live baby or your money back. The donor produces a much larger number of eggs than a normal cycle and the embryos are genetically tested prior to transfer. It's an 80% chance of success on first attempt.

How many eggs the donor produces makes no difference whatsoever once these eggs are transplanted into a recipient. Whoever you are paying money to is really telling you a load of bollocks.

I really don't think that can be right. Amd that's ignoring the ethics of donor eggs. Who are these young donors?

Oh sweet jesus! I have house plants with a greater understanding of biology.

Particularly the ethics of eg uni students selling their eggs. As said, drugs are given to make them ovulate far more than one egg.

But women are born with all the eggs they will ever have and when they run out the menopause happens. So does egg donation lead to a few years earlier menopause? Does it affect their fertility when they are ready? Is the proviso always to freeze some of their own and donate others? So many questions. I may be wrong.

No. It is not 🤦🏼‍♀️

https://www.ivi.uk/patient-journey-overseas/

Whatever the details of this particular IVF journey, there seems to be an argument being made by some posters along the lines that 'biology is irrelevant because in some cases medical science can intervene with nature'.

The fact that we can use science to modify nature to some extent doesn't render biology, or more accurately,biological sex irrelevant.

'Yeah but what about cancer treatment and ceasarians etc' is a straw man.

Humans can't change sex, no is a complete sentence and women have the right to boundaries.

Slight topic detour, but I feel I should comment.

I’m not sure I’d believe their claims without talking this through with someone independent in the UK? This is marketing bumph so it is highly skewed at getting clients to part with money, so I’d really want to talk to several clinics, including an NHS specialist who has no vested interest, to really understand the stats re likely conception.

I’d want to understand what factors change at the 2nd and 3rd attempt that make those implantations more successful as, surely, eggs from a single donor implanted on 3 separate occasions in the same womb must, surely, have the same statistical incidence of ‘taking’ so to speak?

The stats on the NHS website state that IVF success rates (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ivf/) are:

• 32% for women under 35
• 25% for women aged 35 to 37
• 19% for women aged 38 to 39
• 11% for women aged 40 to 42
• 5% for women aged 43 to 44
• 4% for women aged over 44

I’m not sure I understand what the clinic is offering that raises success rates to 70-90%?

Having had assistance myself (Clomid to ensure ovulation) after 5 miscarriages, I totally understand the deep desire to have a baby - but there are people who prey on this, so please be sure you have fully corroborated their claims with an independent person before parting with any money.

Despite our belief that ‘we can fix most biological problems’, we really can’t. As a species, humans are actually very inefficient at conception with both explained and unexplained infertility (M or F) increasing all the time - along with the number of people looking to make money out of us. We may disagree on the trans stuff, but please be very careful who you trust your body and your money with on this.

Good luck.

@MrsOvertonsWindow I agree with your post but am confused by your last sentence. Genuine question - who is it that you think benefits?

I do think that changing rooms should have “non gendered” cubicles for those that do not want to use the changing room of their biological sex. But there are many other reasons too. For example once my DDs dad took her swimming and the changing part was difficult - so having some sort of set up for those that need it is important.

@PP82 please don’t bring black women into this debate in that way. Your comment is highly offensive. It’s tiring that people have to compare all “others” to the black experience. A black (or any other race) girl born with a vagina is a girl. A black (or any other race) boy born with a penis is a boy . If the boy transitions into a woman later in life they are a transwoman. And there are differences in the way we will be treated medically - we just have to look at the lack of general medical help so many women already receive when it comes to things like endometriosis and PCOS.

The fact we have to dismiss biology is absolutely insane! - without it you wouldn’t even have the means to transition because guess what - medical science is contributing towards all of the hormone blockers etc. We are also biologically different hence why a boy transitioning needs different medicines to a girl transition. If not guess what our bodies will do during puberty. The girl will transition into a woman and the boy will transition into a man. It’s the way life goes - unless of course there is a medical condition that prevents puberty (you can Google such if you want).

The stats for the success rates of the clinic in question are here: www.ivi.uk/assisted-reproduction-treatments/success-rates/

The stats posted by PP28 were from the separate, egg donation project section of the site rather than the ivf section, and had no context to them so I'd be cautious about interpreting them as live birth success rates.

This derail actually does matter because for lots of us, respect for the facts of our reproductive biology has been a hard and humbling lesson to learn. So the assertion implicit in this side conversation that biology can just be waved away to suit when individuals feel like it feels arrogant and misguided.

I would have been failed on my GCSE maths coursework if I had submitted that graph. There is no labelling beyond a title of Egg Donation.

99% chance of what? Is it perhaps that there is, after three cycles, a 99% chance that the donor has managed to produce eggs to harvest?

That is not a 99% chance that you will conceive using the eggs, much less that you will go home with a baby.

'I’m not sure I understand what the clinic is offering that raises success rates to 70-90%?'

Donor eggs. That's what they are offering. Donor eggs. Those stats are for own egg IVF.

I'm having treatment from this clinic where I live in Spain. Why would I talk to anyone in the UK, where fertility treatment is far inferior to Spain? Women travel from all over the world to have fertility treatment here. I'm lucky enough to live here. I've gone through the stats with my doctor. She's fantastic and I trust her.

Well if you don't go home with a baby you get your money back.

100%. Guys, you can call yourselves what you want, wear what you want, live how you want, but leave women the fuck alone.

i know there are trans men as well as women, but we don’t hear about all their anger and protesting- can’t think why!

I imagine general stats for IFV sucess include a lot of people who have some underlying fertility issue, so they may well be lower than for a person who doesn't and is just near the top of the typical age for a pregnancy.

I am very doubtful of the 99% figure though. Not even 99% of traditionally conceived pregnancies end up with a live birth, something approaching 20% end in miscarriage. So there is something wonky going on with that number and it's not about "donor eggs." AN implanted embryo is always going to have a greater risk associated with it.

That being said, the idea that this represents an overcoming of biology is a bit rich, especially when it's clear that only one sex class can be pregnant at all, and only one produces eggs, and somehow it's the other one that produces sperm.

The irony of a derail about egg donation, IVF and pregnancy success from someone who doesn’t think there are any classes of people determined by sex🤣🤣

Most pregnancies that end in miscarriage do so because of genetic abnormalities in the fetus/embryo. With donor egg IVF those embryos are screened out. Plus other issues that may cause miscarriage in a spontaneous pregnancy have been screened out or dealt with. Endometrial lining prepared etc.

I wasn't talking about this in the context of overcoming the biological differences between the sexes. No one claims people with y chromosomes can get pregnant. They can, however, grow breasts, reduce facial hair, change their voice and the external appearance of their genitalia, if they so wish.

Having a heart transplant is transcending the limits of your biology. It's got nothing to do with gender.

I was talking about escaping the limits of biology more generally, in myriad ways, as humans. Everyone keeps willfully misunderstanding and dragging it back to reproductive organs. Because you're all obsessed with them.