Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

[fromorbit]

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

So you are saying that parents shouldn't discuss behaviour in the classroom, relationships with other children and any possible safeguarding concerns with parents?

Is that what you are saying?

No, I'm saying i don't necessarily think teachers should have to disclose students showing "gender identity conflict" in all cases

I think teachers do discuss these things in Philosophy and Ethics.

But not in sex education as if its factual?

And if they are taught that they are neutral or fundamentally flawed because reality and science?

So you are saying that teachers should routinely deliberately withhold informaton from parents?
Should they do this unilaterally as individuals as they see fit without clear guidelines and without consulting with other staff or services if they think it inappropriate?
If they think it inappropriate to tell the parents, what criteria should this be? How can you be consistent throughout a school, nevermnd the country?
Should they be 'keeping secrets' for children, without involving others? How do you do this without causing power imbalances?
Or should they act within very narrow criteria to withhold information with the default to share info, nd if they do withhold only do so having consultanted with child protection services over the reason why the parent isn't suitable to be told?

Cos safeguarding.

You seem to be rather lacking in your understanding of basic level priniciples in safeguarding tbh.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and medicalisng children without research or indeed following up on treatments to see if they actually work.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and cosmetic surgery on health people with enormous complication rates and who pays for this.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and getting changed in school changing rooms with someone of the opposite sex or with a teacher of the opposite sex.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and gender stereotypes and sexism.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and fairness in sports.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity on the use of pronouns in rape cases.

I personally can't wait for the ethics lessons on Gender Identity and the placement of males in women's prisons.

Except Gender Identity is currently taught as something that you can't apply critical thought to. You must actively switch off the part of your brain that involves ethics.

All these things would be SO interesting. So yes, lets move GI lessons from learn by rote, do not question the fact to critically thought out concepts of morality...

Somehow I think TRAs would have a complete shit fit at that.

I wonder why.

So you agree with others "gender identity shouldn't be taught".
Maybe there is a misunderstanding around what "taught" refers to. I think schools should not be forbidden from covering gender identity in any context. If they do cover it, I'd call that teaching.

Or do you mean there should be no reference to gender identity in any circumstances?

I hate to break it to you, but your children's teachers won't be telling you every single thing they know about your child. They don't have time.

I trust the teachers to disclose appropriately. They have a lot more experience than either of us. So many kids identify as "they/them" that I can see that in itself might not be considered a safeguarding risk.

Feel free to correct me. Imagine a year 8 girl from a family background you know well, know she isn't being mistreated at home, know she's part of a bigger "SJW" crowd at school who are all non binary. If she says she wants teachers to use "they/them" pronouns. The teacher decides to leave her to it for a couple of weeks, in which time she drops it.

Was the teacher "ignoring a safeguarding risk"? What was the risk exactly?

I’d be straight on the phone, as a teacher, to parents asking them did they know this and is it part of a pattern of silly/attention seeking or disturbed behaviour.

As a parent I’d absolutely want to know.

In safeguarding terms, nobody knows. Which is why teachers are told not to keep secrets. So a child deciding they no longer want to be seen as a girl or boy may well be caught up in the social contagion affecting so many children. Or could be involved in some deeply seedy online conversations with dangerous adults trying to destabilise and groom them. That's the thing about being a teacher and safeguarding. You don't have the full context. So a teacher's role is to share information with the DSL. Their role is to evaluate and, depending on context, to take it further. And with almost every safeguarding situation, sharing information with parents happens at an early stage as parents can't protect their children if other adults keep secrets about them.
This has existed since formal safeguarding practice started in schools. It's only recently that transactivists were able to influence schools and tell them that this group of vulnerable children should not be included in basic safeguarding practice for ... reasons... transphobia... bigotry.... etc

And BTW I am a teacher, and a parent.

I know of a number of teachers who were formally disciplined (and two dismissed) for inappropriately keeping a child's confidence. One involved a child's death and one a child being sexually abused.
One teacher dismissed the child's disclosure as fantasy as they knew the adult involved and one failed to understand how serious the issue was the child had shared with them. And that's the point - as a teacher you rarely have the full picture of a child's life, hence being told to share information.

The death of every child involves an in depth investigation into the circumstances - failure to share information is a repeated finding. The idea that transactivists are being allowed to undermine this basic safeguarding principle is actively harming children.

It's often an in tray exercise for senior appointments - giving a range of scenarios that include a potential safeguarding situation and asking candidates to prioritise them - hoping that they see the safeguarding issue as a priority.

Sorry for the lengthy posts - safeguarding children is complex and relies on adults working together in a formal structure. It's frustrating to see posters dismissing the need to share information, especially with parents as that's built into the system.

You make it sound like changing your name and pronouns is a 'minor' thing that you can just overlook.

That argument that teachers don't have time to tell you everything is disengenous at best!

Sorry for the lengthy posts - safeguarding children is complex and relies on adults working together in a formal structure. It's frustrating to see posters dismissing the need to share information, especially with parents as that's built into the system.
There are lengthy posts, like yours MrsO, that are worth reading because they are well informed, considered, and helpful. Don't apologise for knowing what you are talking about. It's clear that you do.

We lurkers can pick out the repetitive nonsense from the thread. It's fairly easy to spot.

Coincidentally this was the episode of Jon Ronsons podcast that I listened to this morning - very relevant to this thread

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2QOFrVjCL6DMfvss4q6xEE?si=MdyUXmZBRpaXDuCH6RsUzw

Yes agree on both points

What year do you teach?

I trust the teachers to disclose appropriately. They have a lot more experience than either of us.

All of them? Even the ones who are in their first year of teaching after training? You do realise that some of the women posting here are teachers, don't you?

Feel free to correct me. Imagine a year 8 girl from a family background you know well, know she isn't being mistreated at home, know she's part of a bigger "SJW" crowd at school who are all non binary. If she says she wants teachers to use "they/them" pronouns. The teacher decides to leave her to it for a couple of weeks, in which time she drops it.

How do you know this child's family background? How do you know she's not being mistreated at home? How do you know there aren't other issues that might be influencing this behaviour? Answer: you don't.

When you say 'the teacher decides to leave her to it for a couple of weeks', is the teacher ignoring the child's wishes and still referring to her as 'she', or is she going along with the pretence that this child is now neither a boy nor a girl? If the latter, she is participating in the girls's fantasy. This is not 'leaving her to it'.

I notice you've switched from saying that parents shouldn't be told if they're suspected of being abusive to saying that they shouldn't be told if they're good parents because it's obviously a trivial matter. Why is this? Do you think that parents should never be told?

So a teacher's role is to share information with the DSL. Their role is to evaluate and, depending on context, to take it further

Exactly. I want the "depending on context" bit to remain. I think blanket commandments are potentially dangerous.

Any chance you fancy giving those of us who don't have Spotify a clue as to the contents?

I haven't switched from anything. Stop talking to me as if this is a court of law and you are cross examining a witness. It's not a good way to manage a debate.

I was referring to this earlier post:

AdamRyan · 15/02/2024 21:01
In most cases it should not be happening but in some cases there may be wider safeguarding concerns where teachers decide the risks from telling the parents are greater than the risks from not telling them.

Then today:
Imagine a year 8 girl from a family background you know well, know she isn't being mistreated at home, know she's part of a bigger "SJW" crowd at school who are all non binary. If she says she wants teachers to use "they/them" pronouns. The teacher decides to leave her to it for a couple of weeks, in which time she drops it.

You seem to think teachers know all about the family backgrounds of all the children they teach (how?) and can make safeguarding decisions according to what they think they know about the child's home life and parents.

That's not how safeguarding works.

That's the "context" I'm talking about. There is such a thing as nuance and taking a different approach depending on the circumstances. Telling the parents isn't always the best thing. Neither is not telling them. We shouldn't be pushing for a blanket approach as there could be unintended consequences.

Listen to the podcast, I think you'll find it interesting.

AdamRyan · Yesterday 23:32

I think teachers do discuss these things in Philosophy and Ethics.

They may well discuss and dissect those subjects, in the appropriate class, but they don't teach them as uncontested facts. They tease out the illogicalities and explore why they are wrong.