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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Puberty blockers - 'safe and fully reversible'🤔

97 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 12/02/2024 12:07

An article in Unherd on the extraordinary reasons for refusing to publish a study that attempted to examine the basis for these claims.

https://unherd.com/2024/02/why-did-three-journals-reject-my-puberty-blocker-study/

Why did three journals reject my puberty-blocker study?

Trans children deserve to know the facts

https://unherd.com/2024/02/why-did-three-journals-reject-my-puberty-blocker-study

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 13/02/2024 01:44

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 00:53

"We all know that the existence of child transsexuals is a myth which was invented to support claims by older male transitioners that they had felt that way since childhood."

I've just told you that I felt that way since childhood. I told Bernadette Wren at GIDS how I felt when I first met her. I am one of the people you claim is a myth. We aren't. You need a new argument - this one is invalidated by the mere existence of the person you are arguing with.

What made you believe that you were a girl?

I knew I was a girl because I understood that I had a girl's body.

You believed you were a girl even though you must have understood that you had a boy's body. Why did you think you were a girl?

Oblomov23 · 13/02/2024 04:26

The realty is that you can't change sex. Being trans doesn't change much sadly.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/02/2024 06:57

Britinme · 13/02/2024 01:09

You didn't know you were a girl because you weren't. You imagined what it would be like to be a girl based on your perception of what that was. You weren't socialized as a girl and you didn't develop as a girl and your peers didn't react to you as if you were a girl. You didn't menstruate or contemplate the possibility of pregnancy. You weren't vulnerable in the way girls are vulnerable. I'm sorry for your struggles.

Exactly.

DisforDarkChocolate · 13/02/2024 07:01

They need to make sure the lived experience people have more than one perspective. I shall do some digging.

Barbie222 · 13/02/2024 07:24

Britinme · 13/02/2024 01:09

You didn't know you were a girl because you weren't. You imagined what it would be like to be a girl based on your perception of what that was. You weren't socialized as a girl and you didn't develop as a girl and your peers didn't react to you as if you were a girl. You didn't menstruate or contemplate the possibility of pregnancy. You weren't vulnerable in the way girls are vulnerable. I'm sorry for your struggles.

This. Can't be said enough.

RethinkingLife · 13/02/2024 09:42

DisforDarkChocolate · 13/02/2024 07:01

They need to make sure the lived experience people have more than one perspective. I shall do some digging.

It will be interesting to see who is appointed to NHS England's Research Oversight Board as the people with lived experience.

Similarly, if the scuttlebutt about an upcoming study is accurate (to be confirmed) then it will be helpful to know who the lived experience contributors are to the study oversight | management groups, as well as the ones who have input to the study design | protocol and the public-facing study documents such as informed consent and the study information sheets.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2024 11:06

Britinme · 13/02/2024 01:09

You didn't know you were a girl because you weren't. You imagined what it would be like to be a girl based on your perception of what that was. You weren't socialized as a girl and you didn't develop as a girl and your peers didn't react to you as if you were a girl. You didn't menstruate or contemplate the possibility of pregnancy. You weren't vulnerable in the way girls are vulnerable. I'm sorry for your struggles.

This. Perfectly put.

OldCrone · 13/02/2024 11:29

I'm not expecting to get an answer from BH about why he believes he 'knew' he was a girl, but when any trans person tries to explain this it always comes down to stereotypes.

For small children the stereotypes are more important than the differences in their bodies. If a little boy is told that he shouldn't do things that he likes, like playing with dolls or wearing a dress, because those things are for girls, he's likely to think that he should have been born a girl or perhaps even that he 'is' a girl.

If children are confused about what sex they are it's the fault of the adults around them for reinforcing stereotypes.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 11:47

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2024 19:49

I don't blame commenters such as BH for the preferred engagement style. After all, it's modelled after the best known key opinion leaders like Stephen Whittle. Even today, Whittle has displayed bad faith at best or truly jaw-dropping ignorance when it comes to topics that touches on Whittle's lived experience and falls to some extent within Whittle's area of notional expertise (law).

Whittle tweeted Sam Fowler's New European article. The (now) notorious one that was mentioned at Rachel Meade's tribunal hearing today. Yes, the one that has now been removed in response to its numerous errors and, shall we say, misrepresentations of various individuals and organisations. Whittle is a lawyer and the errors should have been obvious. It's an embarrassing display and a very poor example.

x.com/stephenwhittle/status/1756989506031341916?s=20

I thought that this was a very clear indication that Whittle really seems to not be able to unemotionally analyse legal positions. Something that I would have thought was incredibly important for a Professor.

Chersfrozenface · 13/02/2024 11:58

It's all about the feelz today.

News: asking eyewitnesses to an incident not what they saw but how they feel.

History: claiming people in the past felt a certain way - as if we could know for sure! We can take a guess, if they left letters or diaries or other writings, but...

So I'm not surprised that, to take an example, a law professor would try to interpret the law according to that professor's very particular attitudes and demands.

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 11:58

No male person can 'know they were a girl'.

This is the type of falsehood that makes someone who is a heavily invested in identity and medicalisation male person completely unsuitable to be in any position to give advice to children and young people.

SamW98 · 13/02/2024 12:00

Britinme · 13/02/2024 01:09

You didn't know you were a girl because you weren't. You imagined what it would be like to be a girl based on your perception of what that was. You weren't socialized as a girl and you didn't develop as a girl and your peers didn't react to you as if you were a girl. You didn't menstruate or contemplate the possibility of pregnancy. You weren't vulnerable in the way girls are vulnerable. I'm sorry for your struggles.

Absolutely perfectly put 👏

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 12:03

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/02/2024 21:04

She should. Consider this article. I'm surprised you're unfamiliar with it.

extract

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

In the interviews with women who took Lupron to delay puberty or grow taller, most described depression and anxiety. Several recounted their struggles, or a daughter’s, with suicidal urges. One mother of a Lupron patient described seizures.

Such complaints have recently come under scrutiny at the FDA, which regulates drug safety.

“We are currently conducting a specific review of nervous system and psychiatric events in association with the use of GnRH agonists, [a class of drugs] including Lupron, in pediatric patients,” the FDA said in a statement in response to questions from Kaiser Health News and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting.

The FDA is also reviewing deadly seizures stemming from the pediatric use of Lupron and other drugs in its class. While there are other drugs similar to Lupron, it is a market leader and thousands of women have joined Facebook groups or internet forums in recent years claiming that Lupron ruined their lives or left them crippled.

But the FDA has yet to issue additional warnings about pediatric use, and unapproved uses of the drugs persist.

Meanwhile, pediatricians and industry researchers are criticizing doctors for using Lupron to help kids with normally timed puberty grow taller, an “off-label” practice that was shown more than a decade ago to cause harm. Off-label prescribing is legal and common, but means doctors are using drugs in ways the FDA did not determine to be safe and effective.

continues

Thank you Neighbourhood.

It has become very apparent over the years that some particular posters simply dismiss the life limiting and life shortening direct and indirect side effects of Lupron in its forms on the female body. And it is dismissal. Because it has been pointed out to them many times over the years.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/02/2024 12:49

Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 11:47

I thought that this was a very clear indication that Whittle really seems to not be able to unemotionally analyse legal positions. Something that I would have thought was incredibly important for a Professor.

Essential skill for a GCSE student, I'd have thought, but I am probably living in the past.

RethinkingLife · 13/02/2024 13:19

News: asking eyewitnesses to an incident not what they saw but how they feel.

Tell us your reckons…

History: claiming people in the past felt a certain way - as if we could know for sure!

At a slight but overlapping tangent, transing the dead is increasingly common. Even those that just leave their bones and no artefacts.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4838694-women-were-hunters-too?reply=127272688

https://williamaferguson.substack.com/p/trans-out-your-dead?s=r

That Mitchell and Webb Look - Send us your reckons

"Well never mind what she thinks what do YOU reckon?"Copyright BBC. I will remove this video clip if requested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQnd5ilKx2Y

Igmum · 13/02/2024 17:58

To get this thread back to the original article and away from BH's super-important menz feelz thank you so much for posting this @IcakethereforeIam. IIRC there are similar studies on the impact of puberty blockers on children with precocious puberty which also show this 10-15 point drop in IQ. Enough to materially affect a person's quality of life, work, relationships and even ability to function. We are taking vulnerable children and making them significantly less capable of even living independently because some activists online say we should. This is a crime.

Justwrong68 · 13/02/2024 18:08

RoyalCorgi · 12/02/2024 12:44

This enormously worrying and almost incomprehensible.

If you think about the process that drugs normally have to go through before they reach market, it is lengthy, laborious and time-consuming. There have to be animal studies, then there have to be safety studies on a small sample of humans, then there has to be an RCT on a large number of patients. Then you have to go through approval by the FDA or similar authority. It takes a good couple of years.

None of this is happening with puberty blockers. The reason, it seems, is because puberty blockers are already approved for use for precocious puberty, therefore it is permissible to use them off-label for adolescents with gender dysphoria. But the cases are completely different - a child with precocious puberty will take the drug to halt puberty, but then resume it at a later date. Children with gender dysphoria who take puberty blockers may never go through puberty.

If this isn't a medical scandal in the making, I don't know what is.

And I guess there's no uproar because the man on the street assumes that extensive research and testing have been done. It's a huge scandal and because it's only the daily mail (in the mainstream) talking about it, people assume it's misplaced hysteria

Igmum · 13/02/2024 18:18

Spot on. It's the professional ladder of trust that is not just missing a few rungs, it's completely missing.

TRAs should be leading the charge against this. After all, why should people who think they are trans have medical care that is significantly worse than everyone else?

OldCrone · 14/02/2024 11:12

Igneococcus · 14/02/2024 10:37

The Times is reporting this today:

What they say about the position of the NHS concerning the reversibility of puberty blockers isn't totally accurate.

The NHS says that the physical effects of puberty blockers are reversible and a person who stops taking them will simply resume puberty as normal.

However it acknowledges the psychological effects of the drugs on the adolescent brain are unclear.

This is what it actually says on the NHS website, where they seem a bit less certain that the effects of these drugs are reversible:

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although GIDS advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones.

The NHS site attributes the comment about being physically reversible to the now closed and discredited GIDS. But GIDS were not endocrinologists. What would a bunch of psychiatrists and psychologists know about whether the treatment was physically reversible? Especially as nearly all their young patients went on to have opposite sex hormones. Has this claim ever been tested? What do the NHS endocrinologists say about this?

Helleofabore · 14/02/2024 11:43

The NHS really should also state clearly that the drugs can cause additional long term health issues that may not become apparent until adulthood. I always felt not stating that is dishonest.

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2024 11:48

Has this claim ever been tested? What do the NHS endocrinologists say about this?

If the rumours (not yet validated) of an upcoming prospective study are true, it will be interesting to know who the Principal Investigators are and the field in which they're situated (e.g., paediatrics, endocrinology, neuroscience, psychiatry - and various intersections).

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 14/02/2024 15:02

Although GIDS advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

Various trans activists on social media interpreted that claim to mean that no matter how long a patient was on blockers, puberty would resume as soon as the treatment ceased. Even if the patient was in his or her twenties or thirties.

Trans activists generally seem unable to contemplate a personal future beyond 35, so I've not seen any explicitly claim that puberty could resume in one's 50s or 60s, although their grand claims certainly imply it!

ANameChangePresents · 15/02/2024 13:29

This reply has been deleted

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ANameChangePresents · 15/02/2024 13:37

Ooops. Clearly I need to state that Trans people are whatever sex they claim they are. Thoughts manifest reality in all circumstances.

I'm also a 6 foot tall Hungarian fashion model with glass cut cheeks. Also, global warming isn't happening because I clicked my heels a few times.

Is this an appropriate declaration of faith?

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