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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Puberty blockers - 'safe and fully reversible'🤔

97 replies

IcakethereforeIam · 12/02/2024 12:07

An article in Unherd on the extraordinary reasons for refusing to publish a study that attempted to examine the basis for these claims.

https://unherd.com/2024/02/why-did-three-journals-reject-my-puberty-blocker-study/

Why did three journals reject my puberty-blocker study?

Trans children deserve to know the facts

https://unherd.com/2024/02/why-did-three-journals-reject-my-puberty-blocker-study

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/02/2024 21:01

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 20:44

You feel the same way about them being used to treat precocious puberty, then?

That's a medical decision and medics using drugs to treat precocious puberty in very young children will be expected to have got clinical approval for their use and be very clear about adverse effects on children's bodies - discussing these clearly with the parents with parental responsibility. None of us (with the exception of the doctors who post on here) will have the medical training to assess their use in children.
Can't believe this has to be pointed out on here.

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:01

OldCrone · 12/02/2024 20:51

Well, I have one of my Prostap SR (Leuprorelin Acetate depot injection 3.75mg) leaflets right here

You've kept that for a long time. Didn't you transition over 20 years ago?

I did! I've not needed to have Leuprorelin injections for a very, very long time but I kept all the letters, medication notes, paperwork and packaging a. in case they turned out to be useful in the future and b. so I had a historical keepsake. Super glad I did too!

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:03

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/02/2024 21:01

That's a medical decision and medics using drugs to treat precocious puberty in very young children will be expected to have got clinical approval for their use and be very clear about adverse effects on children's bodies - discussing these clearly with the parents with parental responsibility. None of us (with the exception of the doctors who post on here) will have the medical training to assess their use in children.
Can't believe this has to be pointed out on here.

You are implying that these things did not happen for my treatment.

NecessaryScene · 12/02/2024 21:03

I would like to think that their use in precocious puberty was medically verified as safe.

You would, wouldn't you? I would like to think that approval does still mean something.

As far as I can tell, some GnRH agonists have been approved for precocious puberty in some places. Whereas none have been approved for delaying normal puberty, anywhere, afaict.

(I imagine a large part of medical approval is showing potential medical benefit outweighs potential harms, and the main problem here is the lack of any concrete medical benefit at all to delaying normal puberty.)

You've kept that for a long time. Didn't you transition over 20 years ago?

Maybe it is an old leaflet. A quick google brought up the current leaflet, which does state its approval for precocious puberty.

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/4650/pil

Use in children:

PROSTAP SR is used to treat premature puberty which is caused by a release of certain hormones from the pituitary gland (central precocious puberty) in girls under 9 years of age and boys under 10 years of age. Your doctor will make a precise diagnosis of central precocious puberty.

Prostap SR DCS - Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) - (emc)

Prostap SR DCS - Patient Information Leaflet (PIL) by Takeda UK Ltd

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/4650/pil

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/02/2024 21:04

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 20:44

You feel the same way about them being used to treat precocious puberty, then?

She should. Consider this article. I'm surprised you're unfamiliar with it.

extract

For years, Sharissa Derricott, 30, had no idea why her body seemed to be failing. At 21, a surgeon replaced her deteriorated jaw joint. She’s been diagnosed with degenerative disc disease and fibromyalgia, a chronic pain condition. Her teeth are shedding enamel and cracking.

None of it made sense to her until she discovered a community of women online who describe similar symptoms and have one thing in common: All had taken a drug called Lupron.

Thousands of parents chose to inject their daughters with the drug, which was approved to shut down puberty in young girls but also is commonly used off-label to help short kids grow taller.

The drug’s pediatric version comes with few warnings about long-term side effects. It is also used in adults to fight prostate cancer or relieve uterine pain and the Food and Drug Administration has warnings on the drug’s adult labels about a variety of side effects.

More than 10,000 adverse event reports filed with the FDA reflect the experiences of women who’ve taken Lupron. The reports describe everything from brittle bones to faulty joints.

In interviews and in online forums, women who took the drug as young girls or initiated a daughter’s treatment described harsh side effects that have been well-documented in adults.

Women who used Lupron a decade or more ago to delay puberty or grow taller described the short-term side effects listed on the pediatric label: pain at the injection site, mood swings, and headaches. Yet they also described conditions that usually affect people much later in life. A 20-year-old from South Carolina was diagnosed with osteopenia, a thinning of the bones, while a 25-year-old from Pennsylvania has osteoporosis and a cracked spine. A 26-year-old in Massachusetts needed a total hip replacement. A 25-year-old in Wisconsin, like Derricott, has chronic pain and degenerative disc disease.

“It just feels like I’m being punished for basically being experimented on when I was a child,” said Derricott, of Lawton, Okla. “I’d hate for a child to be put on Lupron, get to my age and go through the things I have been through.”

In the interviews with women who took Lupron to delay puberty or grow taller, most described depression and anxiety. Several recounted their struggles, or a daughter’s, with suicidal urges. One mother of a Lupron patient described seizures.

Such complaints have recently come under scrutiny at the FDA, which regulates drug safety.

“We are currently conducting a specific review of nervous system and psychiatric events in association with the use of GnRH agonists, [a class of drugs] including Lupron, in pediatric patients,” the FDA said in a statement in response to questions from Kaiser Health News and Reveal from the Center for Investigative Reporting.

The FDA is also reviewing deadly seizures stemming from the pediatric use of Lupron and other drugs in its class. While there are other drugs similar to Lupron, it is a market leader and thousands of women have joined Facebook groups or internet forums in recent years claiming that Lupron ruined their lives or left them crippled.

But the FDA has yet to issue additional warnings about pediatric use, and unapproved uses of the drugs persist.

Meanwhile, pediatricians and industry researchers are criticizing doctors for using Lupron to help kids with normally timed puberty grow taller, an “off-label” practice that was shown more than a decade ago to cause harm. Off-label prescribing is legal and common, but means doctors are using drugs in ways the FDA did not determine to be safe and effective.

continues

Drug used to halt puberty in children may cause lasting health problems

A number of women attribute their chronic health problems — including brittle bones and faulty joints — to use of Lupron while they were children.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/02/2024 21:14

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:03

You are implying that these things did not happen for my treatment.

I haven't discussed you or your treatment - that's of no interest to me.

My concerns revolve around the children being subject to poorly evidenced medication as revealed by the debacle at GIDS. And to highlight when a poster make unevidenced or inaccurate claims about children / medication that appear to be based on an ideological position that ignores safeguarding, the standards of medical care needed for children below the age of consent and a range of other factors that those who work with children deal with daily.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 12/02/2024 21:18

I'm sure you're on the edge of your seats, waiting for the next part.

extract

In 2009, an international consortium of pediatricians had warned against such use. Among them was a pediatric endocrinologist, Dr. Erica Eugster, whose research found that puberty-delaying drugs are widely used off label, even though the safety of such prescribing is unproven.

The health problems described by more than a dozen women in interviews could illustrate long-range effects of pediatric use and warrant further investigation.

“That’s what you have to ask, ‘Is this the tide rising?’” said Dr. Alan Rogol, a University of Virginia Medical School professor emeritus in pediatrics who said he prescribed the medication for decades. “None of us can answer that.”

AbbVie Inc., the company that now makes the drug, said Lupron safety studies were submitted to the FDA before it approved the medication for Central Precocious Puberty in 1993. The drug’s label defines the condition as the onset of sexual characteristics before age 8 in girls and before 9 in boys.

“Uses beyond those contained in the approved label are considered unapproved uses,” company spokesman Morry Smulevitz said in an email.

Federal records show that the FDA official who led the drug approval process two decades ago was troubled by the two studies he reviewed. In a 1993 letter obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, former FDA medical officer Dr. Alexander Fleming wrote in a memo for the drug approval file that it was “regrettable” that the panel approved the drug after minimal study.

One study followed 22 children for just six months, Fleming said. He described the other study as a “free for all” review that made it difficult to determine what dose was best for children of different sizes. Still, he suggested long-term tracking of the drugs’ effects and favored approval “in the absence of any better approach.”

The study Fleming referred to as the “free for all” concluded in 1992, according to a summary submitted to European authorities. Fleming had no further comment when contacted recently.

A different drugmaker-sponsored study, completed long after Fleming’s letter, looked at children who had taken Lupron for precocious puberty from 1991 to 2009. The 2010 study, which was submitted to the FDA, reported that seven of 55 kids had suffered serious side effects, but said the only serious side effects possibly related to Lupron were the growth of a preexisting tumor, deteriorating vision, and severe asthma exacerbation.

According to the National Institutes of Health repository of clinical research, which lists adverse effects discovered in studies, there are two serious side effects of Lupron that aren’t mentioned in the drugmaker’s 2010 study: a bone disorder and a disease-caused fracture, an omission which looks “puzzling” to Dr. Ned Feder, a staff scientist at the Project on Government Oversight.

“It does seem to me that that is certainly a point of criticism,” Feder said. “What are they doing? Is this an accident?”

Smulevitz and the author, Dr. Peter A. Lee of the Penn State College of Medicine, did not answer specific questions about the report. The 2010 study Lee wrote was sponsored by Abbott Laboratories, and is not published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Abbott, which was once part of a joint venture that made Lupron, said in a statement that Lupron and the rest of its pharmaceutical business were transferred to AbbVie in 2013.

AbbVie paid the author, Dr. Lee, $157,066 from 2013 through 2015 for traveling and speaking about Lupron across the nation, according to publicly available Medicare data. Lee did not respond to questions about his financial relationship with the drug company.

Smulevitz, the company spokesman, said AbbVie “regularly monitors and reports to [the] FDA (as well as other regulatory agencies) new safety information on an ongoing basis to ensure that our label contains accurate and up-to-date information to assist prescribers and patients.” He said prescribers are referred to other Lupron warning labels to review adverse events.

The FDA, in its statement, said it continues to review post-marketing reports of Lupron and other drugs in its class, monitors adverse-event reports, and informs the public of safety concerns.

This article was written in 2017. Since then, the American FDA has recorded pseudo-tumours as a side-effect of Lupron when taken by children. That was in 2022, I think.

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:19

IcakethereforeIam · 12/02/2024 21:00

Just an woolly attitude of, "Child knows best, it's all lovely."

And according to Butters these children are cognitively compromised on account of gender dysphoria!

You were so close! You almost had it!

Even the OP's linked study by a renowned anti-trans activist admits that gender dysphoria appears to be linked to a cognitive strain in those who are suffering it.

You don't need a research paper for that one, though. You can just talk to any child experiencing gender dysphoria.

BitingtheSkirting · 12/02/2024 21:22

You can just talk to any child

That's not really how medical studies work.

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:35

MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/02/2024 21:14

I haven't discussed you or your treatment - that's of no interest to me.

My concerns revolve around the children being subject to poorly evidenced medication as revealed by the debacle at GIDS. And to highlight when a poster make unevidenced or inaccurate claims about children / medication that appear to be based on an ideological position that ignores safeguarding, the standards of medical care needed for children below the age of consent and a range of other factors that those who work with children deal with daily.

'poorly evidenced medication' like the stuff that's been prescribed for us for more than three decades?

What debacle? The one where children presented for treatment and didn't get it due to a partisan ruling that was later overturned?

The one where even the barely-functional historical service is about to be shut down with no effective replacement, thus failing children who actually need it even further? That's a debacle.

Allowing about a thousand children - across several decades - to delay the effects of puberty for a few years before moving on to hormone therapy they were going to start as soon as they were able to anyway is not a debacle.

OldCrone · 12/02/2024 21:47

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 21:35

'poorly evidenced medication' like the stuff that's been prescribed for us for more than three decades?

What debacle? The one where children presented for treatment and didn't get it due to a partisan ruling that was later overturned?

The one where even the barely-functional historical service is about to be shut down with no effective replacement, thus failing children who actually need it even further? That's a debacle.

Allowing about a thousand children - across several decades - to delay the effects of puberty for a few years before moving on to hormone therapy they were going to start as soon as they were able to anyway is not a debacle.

What is this treatment for? What illness do these children have? These are children with healthy bodies who are given 'treatment' which makes their bodies less healthy and removes their ability to reproduce and to have normal sexual relationships as adults. Why?

We all know that the existence of child transsexuals is a myth which was invented to support claims by older male transitioners that they had felt that way since childhood.

Topofthemountain · 12/02/2024 21:48

'poorly evidenced medication' like the stuff that's been prescribed for us for more than three decades?

It is for children, yes.

Allowing about a thousand children - across several decades - to delay the effects of puberty for a few years before moving on to hormone therapy they were going to start as soon as they were able to anyway is not a debacle.

They do not delay the effects of puberty, they stop them. All the important bits like brain development and bone density completely skipped. Young adults with bones more fragile than 80 year olds is not something that should be aimed for.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2024 21:58

Functional illiteracy is a substantial issue in the UK. I find the source and interpretation of the data problematic but it's a significant cause of patient harm because it affects health literacy which includes an understanding of medications, dosages, and appropriate populations for an intervention.

https://literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/

https://library.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/08/Health-literacy-how-to-guide.pdf

However, after today's performance from Whittle, and some ill-informed commentary from someone with lived experience of comparable medication (let that sink in) on this thread, I can only lament the scant evidence base about the impact of some classes of medication on a range of cognitive competencies.

https://library.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/08/Health-literacy-how-to-guide.pdf

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/02/2024 22:09

Allowing about a thousand children - across several decades - to delay the effects of puberty for a few years before moving on to hormone therapy they were going to start as soon as they were able to anyway is not a debacle.

It is a debacle. There is a huge difference between these two approaches.

  1. Child goes on puberty blockers. Normal puberty doesn't happen. None of the child's organs mature in the normal way, including the brain. Child is effectively frozen as a pre-teen. Child is then asked to make a decision with a pre-teen brain about going onto cross-sex hormones, but a child who has not experienced puberty and who has not started to grasp what adult life is like can't make an informed decision on giving up fertility and any chance of a normal sex life and sexual response.
  2. Child goes through puberty. Child's brain matures. Child has a chance to experience sexual attraction and response. Child's sexual orientation becomes clearer and settles. In the old days of watchful waiting, most such children grew out of their gender dysphoria and moved into adult life reconciled to their biological sex. For the very few who remained dysphoric, they made the decision on cross-hormones and surgery with adult brains and informed by some early adult experiences.
RainWithSunnySpells · 12/02/2024 22:16
that's me butters stotch GIF by South Park

'And according to Butters...'

Sorry for the silly tangent on a serious thread - please feel free to ignore this post - but the above made me laugh as the first thing that popped into my head was:

IcakethereforeIam · 12/02/2024 22:37

RainWithSunnySpells · 12/02/2024 22:16

'And according to Butters...'

Sorry for the silly tangent on a serious thread - please feel free to ignore this post - but the above made me laugh as the first thing that popped into my head was:

😁 I nearly posted a .gif too.

If it's gender dysphoria that causes a cognitive impairment, then there's a test for it which can be used to weed out the genuinely dysphoria from the kids that are having problems and have been groomed other problems and just fallen into the trans net.

I suspect that if such impairment is a thing, it's something common to many children with mental health issues.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 12/02/2024 23:08

ButterflyHatched advised after first started posting here that ButterflyHatched was approaching 40 and had a number of health issues as a result of treatments and described the future as “the Sword of Damocles” hanging over them as a result.

So yes, listen to trans people when they talk about the health implications of puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones.

Noseyoldcow · 12/02/2024 23:35

I'll probably get banned for this, but........Everyone who thinks they may have been born into the wrong body should watch the Monty Python Life of Brian Loretta sketch - it's on YouTube. And listen to what John Cleese' character says.
The body you are born with is determined at conception; you will get either xy or xx chromosomes with the corresponding reproductive equipment. If you can't accept that, it's your head that needs fixing, not your body.

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 23:51

OldCrone · 12/02/2024 21:47

What is this treatment for? What illness do these children have? These are children with healthy bodies who are given 'treatment' which makes their bodies less healthy and removes their ability to reproduce and to have normal sexual relationships as adults. Why?

We all know that the existence of child transsexuals is a myth which was invented to support claims by older male transitioners that they had felt that way since childhood.

I already knew I was a girl before I picked up a copy of Starship Traveller to read from the book shelf in year 4.
I already knew I was a girl before we read the first chapter of The Hobbit in class in year 5.
I already knew I was a girl while I was learning my times tables.
I already knew I was a girl when the Spice Girls released 'Wannabe'.
I already knew I was a girl when Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was released.
I already knew I was a girl when I read Bill's New Frock and couldn't stop crying.

You're literally quoting someone who is living proof that you're lying.

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 23:56

NotBadConsidering · 12/02/2024 23:08

ButterflyHatched advised after first started posting here that ButterflyHatched was approaching 40 and had a number of health issues as a result of treatments and described the future as “the Sword of Damocles” hanging over them as a result.

So yes, listen to trans people when they talk about the health implications of puberty blockers and wrong sex hormones.

None of which are anything to do with the effects of pubertal blockade by GNRH Agonists

OldCrone · 13/02/2024 00:23

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 23:51

I already knew I was a girl before I picked up a copy of Starship Traveller to read from the book shelf in year 4.
I already knew I was a girl before we read the first chapter of The Hobbit in class in year 5.
I already knew I was a girl while I was learning my times tables.
I already knew I was a girl when the Spice Girls released 'Wannabe'.
I already knew I was a girl when Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was released.
I already knew I was a girl when I read Bill's New Frock and couldn't stop crying.

You're literally quoting someone who is living proof that you're lying.

You couldn't have known you were a girl when you were a boy.

You might have believed you were a girl, but as you were a boy you were mistaken in this belief.

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 00:53

OldCrone · 13/02/2024 00:23

You couldn't have known you were a girl when you were a boy.

You might have believed you were a girl, but as you were a boy you were mistaken in this belief.

"We all know that the existence of child transsexuals is a myth which was invented to support claims by older male transitioners that they had felt that way since childhood."

I've just told you that I felt that way since childhood. I told Bernadette Wren at GIDS how I felt when I first met her. I am one of the people you claim is a myth. We aren't. You need a new argument - this one is invalidated by the mere existence of the person you are arguing with.

Britinme · 13/02/2024 01:09

You didn't know you were a girl because you weren't. You imagined what it would be like to be a girl based on your perception of what that was. You weren't socialized as a girl and you didn't develop as a girl and your peers didn't react to you as if you were a girl. You didn't menstruate or contemplate the possibility of pregnancy. You weren't vulnerable in the way girls are vulnerable. I'm sorry for your struggles.

NotBadConsidering · 13/02/2024 01:29

ButterflyHatched · 12/02/2024 23:56

None of which are anything to do with the effects of pubertal blockade by GNRH Agonists

You were given a GnRH agonist and your body never finished puberty. How sure are you that your health issues are not a result of that?

If your extensive health issues are not from the GnRH agonist, are you saying they all stem from decades of oestrogen?

So even if puberty blockers are safe and reversible (they’re not) the fact they lead to wrong sex hormones 98% of the time leading to decades of extensive health problems described by a trans person as the Sword of Damocles dangling over their head is a big worry, isn’t it?

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