Page 20 | Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

CaptainWarbeck · 2024-02-03T07:08:49+00:00

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3 Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:07

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:06

This is a reply to the top comment. It has 219 votes:

"I agree with [name of top commenter]. Truth matters. It especially matters when the safety of women and girls is removed because of a culture's refusal to shoot down a lie. You are a great and kind journalist, Janice, and I know you look at this from all sides; but ultimately we can't have it both ways. We cannot 'be kind' to some of them whilst saying that others have proven that they are not worthy of the kindness (like the rapists). Truth has to be universally applied. We cannot know what is going on in that 'nice' man's head....or what he will do when given the opportunity. The ONLY way to ensure safety for women and girls is to decree that ALL men must stay out of their spaces. No exceptions. All good men will understand. Indeed, all good men already stay out of our spaces willingly in order to protect us. They also do not pretend to be one of us.
Pronouns are a foot in the door. Once applied, they make it extremely difficult to exclude a man. That is why the gender lobby have been pushing so hard for them. We must all say no. Being kind to one man is being unkind to all women.
I hope you will reconsider your approach to this , Janice."

Sorry it's a reply to the second top rated comment! Also forgot to @Datun so you'd see it

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:08

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:06

This is a reply to the top comment. It has 219 votes:

"I agree with [name of top commenter]. Truth matters. It especially matters when the safety of women and girls is removed because of a culture's refusal to shoot down a lie. You are a great and kind journalist, Janice, and I know you look at this from all sides; but ultimately we can't have it both ways. We cannot 'be kind' to some of them whilst saying that others have proven that they are not worthy of the kindness (like the rapists). Truth has to be universally applied. We cannot know what is going on in that 'nice' man's head....or what he will do when given the opportunity. The ONLY way to ensure safety for women and girls is to decree that ALL men must stay out of their spaces. No exceptions. All good men will understand. Indeed, all good men already stay out of our spaces willingly in order to protect us. They also do not pretend to be one of us.
Pronouns are a foot in the door. Once applied, they make it extremely difficult to exclude a man. That is why the gender lobby have been pushing so hard for them. We must all say no. Being kind to one man is being unkind to all women.
I hope you will reconsider your approach to this , Janice."

Interesting, thank you. What a reasonable comment.

Are there any comments (sorry Rex, I know this must be a pain), that point out she's accommodating a fetish?

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:08

THIS is a reply to the top rated comment. It has 251 votes:

"And equally importantly, I don't think there was anything remotely disrespectful about Sunak's comment, whether or not Mrs Ghey was present. I can't stand the bloke, but he was simply pointing out a depressing fact: that Keir Starmer cannot remotely be relied upon to respect women's rights in this matter.

He has shifted his angle on trans so many times to keep on the right side of social media twits that he will obviously continue to do so if he's ever PM. It depresses the hëll out of me."

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:09

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:04

They'd use their eyes. And they wouldn't be frightened to form an opinion.

And then they wouldn't be scared to make a decision.

Show quote history

They'd get sued to hell and back.
The agps would love it.

They'd have to have a policy backed by the law.
Which explained why that women can wear the same outfit and he can't.

Helleofabore · 10/02/2024 12:12

Datun · 10/02/2024 11:23

Is that tweet from today??

She's just written an article calling women who disagree with her ultras and extremists.

How is that not tone policing??

Eh?

What am I missing?

Show quote history

It was from 10.30 am this morning Datun.

It is her doubling down. Or is this now quadrupling down ?

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:12

Froodwithatowel · 10/02/2024 12:02

How would I prevent it?

I'd do it exactly as I said in my post.

Have a dress code.
Speak to or send staff home who arrive cross dressed instead of making an appropriately professional gender neutral choice.
Exactly the same as if they turned up in other inappropriate and unacceptable clothes at work while in charge of children and a position of responsibility.

Show quote history

Yes to dress codes.

But what would a dress code say that would prevent a secret agp man wearing a dress, heels and makeup for thrills?

Are you suggesting a dress code which states men cannot wear dresses and makeup?
That men cannot have fake boobs?

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:13

I thoight there were comments Datun. Can only now see this one but a lot of the comments are buried in replies to comments now!!

"Fetish not fantasy"

Has 28 votes

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:13

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:09

They'd get sued to hell and back.
The agps would love it.

They'd have to have a policy backed by the law.
Which explained why that women can wear the same outfit and he can't.

Show quote history

Well then we'd have to talk about cross dressing fetishists wouldn't we?

If we have to go to court to stop men cross dressing in schools, then that's what we'll have to do.

The equality act balances peoples rights, based on a range of protected characteristics.

Women have the right not to be subjected to cross dressing men.

If we then have to come up with a description of what that looks like, then that's what we'll have to do.

Nordensost · 10/02/2024 12:13

"Being kind to one man is being unkind to all women"

This

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:14

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:13

I thoight there were comments Datun. Can only now see this one but a lot of the comments are buried in replies to comments now!!

"Fetish not fantasy"

Has 28 votes

Thank you Rex. The comments are always the litmus test for me.

And, I suspect, Janice too.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:18

Agree Datun about the btl comments.

I also saw this which I suspect may not be too wide of the mark:

"🧵Let’s be clear, this article reveals that this was always about party political manoeuvres masquerading as a sophisticated, liberal ‘Third Way’. But it’s based upon multiple, obvs false premises…

Sex realists are not compelling anyone’s speech - they are expressing a value judgment. And so-called AGP is not a safe new identity to be courteous to according to whim, it’s a serious psychological disorder that we cannot afford to shape society and language around.

The article tellingly includes cheap digs at Sunak, when he undoubtedly has the better (if clunky) principle on sex realism.

The project was to offer Starmer and Labour a friendly ‘trans-lite’, AGP compromise, to solve his ridiculous 99.9% daftness, but it’s backfired terribly."

x.com/nosecretlessons/status/1756278920511443293?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/02/2024 12:19

They'd get sued to hell and back.

I’m not sure they would, if they just required someone to stick to the dress code. But anyone wanting to understand the legal implications could look at case law regarding religious symbols at work. If a cross dressing man got shirty about the dress code, I think I would threaten to introduce a “staff school uniform” that would be gender neutral and very unpopular in the staff room.

Wattnow · 10/02/2024 12:20

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 11:27

It's about a proportionate response to the challenge to safeguarding. There may be differences of opinion as to what a "proportionate response" is, as we already know from the disputes about single-sex spaces.

I fully accept the mire this creates because, as PPs remark, clothes are clothes. I don't think anyone would raise an eyebrow at male teachers wearing sarongs or tunics appropriate to their culture.

We seem to have been trapped for decades by a culture of despair about paraphilias and the transgressive ability to enlist unconsenting people into facilitating them.

It would be a fascinating topic for a Citizens Assembly. Of course, that would predicate a neutral preparatory set of education materials and I am uncertain that that would happen.

Show quote history

Yes Rethinking it is a mire. I'm saying though that in this case we don't actually need to think about clothes, work appropriateness etc etc. He's written a book about what sexually arouses him. There should be a safeguarding concern flagged about this. It happens to be AGP in this case, but it would be the same in any other scenario of a teacher publishing a book about his sexual arousal.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:21

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:18

Agree Datun about the btl comments.

I also saw this which I suspect may not be too wide of the mark:

"🧵Let’s be clear, this article reveals that this was always about party political manoeuvres masquerading as a sophisticated, liberal ‘Third Way’. But it’s based upon multiple, obvs false premises…

Sex realists are not compelling anyone’s speech - they are expressing a value judgment. And so-called AGP is not a safe new identity to be courteous to according to whim, it’s a serious psychological disorder that we cannot afford to shape society and language around.

The article tellingly includes cheap digs at Sunak, when he undoubtedly has the better (if clunky) principle on sex realism.

The project was to offer Starmer and Labour a friendly ‘trans-lite’, AGP compromise, to solve his ridiculous 99.9% daftness, but it’s backfired terribly."

x.com/nosecretlessons/status/1756278920511443293?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

This is all beginning to look like a conflict for Janice, being a labour voter, writing for the times.

Maybe she'll jump ship, concluding that times readers, although giving her a platform, really don't get it.

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:25

Wattnow · 10/02/2024 12:20

Yes Rethinking it is a mire. I'm saying though that in this case we don't actually need to think about clothes, work appropriateness etc etc. He's written a book about what sexually arouses him. There should be a safeguarding concern flagged about this. It happens to be AGP in this case, but it would be the same in any other scenario of a teacher publishing a book about his sexual arousal.

Show quote history

Well quite.

In this particular case, there's no ambiguity at all.

As I said, I don't know why he's still able to work there. He subjecting everybody, including children to his sexual fetish. Completely upfront about it.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:29

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/02/2024 12:19

They'd get sued to hell and back.

I’m not sure they would, if they just required someone to stick to the dress code. But anyone wanting to understand the legal implications could look at case law regarding religious symbols at work. If a cross dressing man got shirty about the dress code, I think I would threaten to introduce a “staff school uniform” that would be gender neutral and very unpopular in the staff room.

Edited

But are you suggesting a dress code which allows women to wear dresses but not men?

I think a gender neutral dress code for all would be the only legal option. Fine if there's a uniform, but many unhappy women if there isn't and women now can't wear skirts or dresses.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Datun · 10/02/2024 12:44

The Equality Act basically protects transvestism at work.

Yes it does.

It's a piece of sexist legislation that should never have been included.

It was brought in on the basis that trans people exist, outside of a sexual fetish.

But then mixes up of the medical condition gender dysphoria, which the equality act thought would be people going through a medical process, and cross dressing fetishists.

But both of them require women to be props and are highly sexist.

Helleofabore · 10/02/2024 12:49

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 12:18

Agree Datun about the btl comments.

I also saw this which I suspect may not be too wide of the mark:

"🧵Let’s be clear, this article reveals that this was always about party political manoeuvres masquerading as a sophisticated, liberal ‘Third Way’. But it’s based upon multiple, obvs false premises…

Sex realists are not compelling anyone’s speech - they are expressing a value judgment. And so-called AGP is not a safe new identity to be courteous to according to whim, it’s a serious psychological disorder that we cannot afford to shape society and language around.

The article tellingly includes cheap digs at Sunak, when he undoubtedly has the better (if clunky) principle on sex realism.

The project was to offer Starmer and Labour a friendly ‘trans-lite’, AGP compromise, to solve his ridiculous 99.9% daftness, but it’s backfired terribly."

x.com/nosecretlessons/status/1756278920511443293?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Thanks again Rex. Your comment commentary has been hugely interesting.

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 12:49

in this case we don't actually need to think about clothes, work appropriateness etc etc. He's written a book about what sexually arouses him.

I was writing more broadly. I'm certainly not proposing a Citizens Assembly about DH but around the more general concerns and mire.

rogdmum · 10/02/2024 13:01

As I said, I don't know why he's still able to work there. He subjecting everybody, including children to his sexual fetish. Completely upfront about it.

Datun His school is activist central (and from Sept it will have a new CEO who actively platforms men like Bobbi Pickard and Jan Morris). I doubt the school has any problem with DH whatsoever.

Datun · 10/02/2024 13:06

rogdmum · 10/02/2024 13:01

As I said, I don't know why he's still able to work there. He subjecting everybody, including children to his sexual fetish. Completely upfront about it.

Datun His school is activist central (and from Sept it will have a new CEO who actively platforms men like Bobbi Pickard and Jan Morris). I doubt the school has any problem with DH whatsoever.

Is it only up to the discretion of the school?

Can a parent not insist that their child isn't subject to a fetish?

Or anyone, in fact. It must be violating any number of child safeguarding rules.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 13:12

You're welcome Hell and Datun.

Back to if we repeal the GRA but then there's still the PC of GR. I do think the latter would be nullified, in reality. That's because the current situation is that someone can take on the PC of GR by saying some words, with the clear implication that they're on a road to a GRC. Or maybe they've got one already.

But if there's no GRC to work towards, all you're left with is calling Mark, Kate. And referring to him as "he". And ignoring what he wears (I realise all the well made points on the broken social contact on clothes with I agree with, but let's say we simply ignore it for the sake of this argument).

Where's the sexual thrill in that? It's not there. There's no attention, no mystery does he / doesn't he have a certificate to be hung over anyone's heads.

It's rendered obsolete and dull.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 13:26

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 13:12

You're welcome Hell and Datun.

Back to if we repeal the GRA but then there's still the PC of GR. I do think the latter would be nullified, in reality. That's because the current situation is that someone can take on the PC of GR by saying some words, with the clear implication that they're on a road to a GRC. Or maybe they've got one already.

But if there's no GRC to work towards, all you're left with is calling Mark, Kate. And referring to him as "he". And ignoring what he wears (I realise all the well made points on the broken social contact on clothes with I agree with, but let's say we simply ignore it for the sake of this argument).

Where's the sexual thrill in that? It's not there. There's no attention, no mystery does he / doesn't he have a certificate to be hung over anyone's heads.

It's rendered obsolete and dull.

The thing is you can't ignore what they wear.

You can insist on the right to call them a man. You can choose to use sex based pronouns and remove that thrill.

But the thrill of wearing a bra blouse, skirt and heels is probably the biggest thrill and that is protected in the EA.

The EA prevents the social management of what was obviously understood in the past as sexual behaviour because it's now discrimination of people's gender reassignment.