Why is Mumsnet so GC?

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

When we exist in public, we don't actually in practice categorise by (the massive oversimplification that comes under the heading of 'genetic') sex. We categorise by gender expression, which is a chaotic and vague mess of different factors and stereotypes

'We'? Speak for yourself but don't speak for us! We do categorise by biological sex. 'Gender expression' is indeed a chaotic vague mess.

You put something on three years ago.

Woot.

I've put plenty on here before. The arrogance of that is off the fucking scale.

The absolute state of the rest of your comments doesn't need much more addressing.

Sex is not a cultural issue that has a changing definition.

You've still not said how we keep sex based rights if we replace sex with gender based on an indefinable feeling.

And youve still not touch on the subject of conflict of rights.

All we have is this hierarchy rather than balancing needs which means third spaces and an acknowledgement that no you aren't a woman, you are a man who doesn't like gender stereotypes and has gone to extremes to try and avoid them.

So yes we can do better, but it won't happen until you properly acknowledge that women's harms are more to do with sex first whilst yours are about gender stereotypes first and as such are completely different and should be different in law and not lumped in together in this utter mess.

"When we exist in public, we don't actually in practice categorise by (the massive oversimplification that comes under the heading of 'genetic') sex. We categorise by gender expression, which is a chaotic and vague mess of different factors and stereotypes. If a person looks 'male or female enough' to assign them a category one way or the other then, because we have been trained from birth to see humans as only one pole or another on a range of expressions, we do so."

What planet is this on?

People reliably can discern male people, however they are dressed.

However, it is irrelevant how someone 'perceives' you. If you are male, you need to stay out of female single sex spaces, not take opportunities that have been set aside for female people due to the oppression of female people for more than one millennia and you should not use the language that female people need for themselves. It really isn't that hard.

You made a decision to modify your body, however, that is not the issue for female people to resolve. YOU made that decision and you need to respect that female people have needs and you are causing female people harm with your decisions.

"This approach of hammering every person into a 'male' or 'female' hole is increasingly revealing itself to be woefully inadequate - not just ideologically, but practically. It feels like stumbling across a vast quarry in a previously flat landscape - even if you fill the quarry back in, it will take a long time for the ecosystem to stabilise and it will never be quite the same again. We can't just return to a 'binary' world - because it was always a strained fiction to begin with."

No. Again, you and some others have made this issue for yourselves, however the rest of the world in general doesn't share your belief that you have become anything other than a male who has modified their body and has tried to live according to their belief.

This "it will take a long time for the ecosystem to stabilise' is a false impediment that you are trying to now force others to also believe. No. It can be very easily fixed. Male people respect female people. It is that fucking simple. Stop forcing us to accept you into female single sex spaces, stop trying to force anyone to accept that you are a 'woman' because of your belief and stope trying to use our language for your self.

Binary was not a strained fiction. This is 'fiction' on your part. There are only two sexes with a huge amount of body variation. It doesn't stop any person from acknowledging their sex though.

We can't just return to a 'binary' world - because it was always a strained fiction to begin with."

We've never left a "binary world". Just because some people pretend it doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it isn't real.

You ignore biological truth at your peril.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/thesaurus/bilge

"range of ways there are to be a human."
There's really only one way to be a human, and it's very simple. You just have to be born homosapien.

"we built laws that used a definition of 'sex' to mean something that was rarely publicly contested and nowadays is a great deal more so."
Contested yes, but only by reality denialists, and still entirely correct.

"When we exist in public, we don't actually in practice categorise by (the massive oversimplification that comes under the heading of 'genetic') sex. We categorise by gender expression, which is a chaotic and vague mess of different factors and stereotypes. If a person looks 'male or female enough' to assign them a category one way or the other then, because we have been trained from birth to see humans as only one pole or another on a range of expressions, we do so."
Once again you highlight your maleness by entirely ignoring that women DO categorise by sex, instinctively and with overwhelming accuracy.

"hammering every person into a 'male' or 'female' hole"
You seem to have a fixation on hammering and holes.

"It feels like stumbling across a vast quarry in a previously flat landscape - even if you fill the quarry back in, it will take a long time for the ecosystem to stabilise and it will never be quite the same again. We can't just return to a 'binary' world - because it was always a strained fiction to begin with."
The only fiction that's strained around here is your post apocalyptic, dystopian narrative. And we don't need to return to a binary world because we never left it. You pretending that nature is not binary (with very few exceptions, hello clownfish) has never changed that fact. And never will.

"The law does not dictate material reality" well here's something we agree on. Has material reality changed in regards to nature being binary? I think not but I'm interested to know what you think.

"Can we do better? Absolutely. Is there a desperate need for frank honesty in culture-wide discussions around safeguarding and single-sex facilities"
I agree. Bring it on! But expect both to be robustly defended, exactly as they are or for stronger measures.

"Am I confident that it will be possible to have these discussions in any meaningful way while they are a charged electorial issue? Not really."
What could you personally, as an individual do to help defuse this politically charged issue? I'm asking you because you raised it, but I think it's something all of us could consider, as ultimately no one is enjoying the current state of affairs.

You say you have been posting on Mumsnet for 3 years, but apparently you also claim to be completely unaware of the mechanics and consequences of human reproduction?

I absolutely categorise by biological sex. I understand that human beings are more varied and individual than eg cattle, so predicted behavior isn't straightforwardly cow versus bull, but males are male and females are female.

Wtf is on the GCSE biology sylibus in 2024?

This nonsense really needs to stop. It's pseudo science drivel.

Sex is binary. It's always been binary and continues to be binary.

And it's the reproductive value of women and the sexual bits of women that's the main issue for women in terms of oppression.

Which has been said on this thread multiple times and ignored and ignored and ignored.

We have women and girls sold into the sexual slavery of marriage in 2024 and some dickhead has the audacity to come along and say 'what about meeeeeee? Sex is made up and contested.'

It's just so fucking offensive and privileged.

"If a person looks 'male or female enough' to assign them a category one way or the other then, because we have been trained from birth to see humans as only one pole or another on a range of expressions, we do so."

Nope. No training needed.

A baby can detect sex from observing a human. So can most people. It may be more difficult to detect in female people after testosterone, but even then it is not 'impossible.

Life must be really hard when you have been led to believe that people, particularly female people cannot perceive who is male after watching them move, and if needed hearing them speak. Certainly after some interaction it is quite likely. There is a range of cues. Even those who had their puberty stopped tend to also have cues. including height.

This happens with or without wearing 'feminine' clothes and makeup and whatever. This is probably the thing that infuriates so many people.

😂😂

The problem was all too often hammering men and women into gendered masculine and feminine holes. The old 'gender binaries' are the fictions (different ones in different cultures and times which should be ditched.

The sex binary is real. There's no 'conceptual strain'.

So much this. The utter self centred delusion required to think that the rest of the world operates the way you want it to, because you want it to, continues to blow my mind.

No one, from the toddlers in the local nursery to the leadership of the Taliban, is categorising humans based on whether they 'look female or male enough'. We correctly sex each other. That's it.

I’ve lost track - logically if the sex binary doesn’t exist, what is a trans woman identifying as?

But important if true - we must tell women in Afghanistan!

Tell the men who force their wives to have scans and then abort when the scan shows they don't have dangling bits growing that sex is contested and it's ok cos their child can just change their gender...

I utterly despair of the shite that some people believe.

Oh course there's fairies living at the bottom of my garden.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13108207/Grieving-mother-gripping-teddy-memory-late-daughter-slams-dehumanising-NHS-erasure-terms-like-mother.html

Sex matters. Words matter.

I'm so pleased Ciara's powerful speech has been given publicity.

When we exist in public, we don't actually in practice categorise by (the massive oversimplification that comes under the heading of 'genetic') sex. We categorise by gender expression, which is a chaotic and vague mess of different factors and stereotypes. If a person looks 'male or female enough' to assign them a category one way or the other then, because we have been trained from birth to see humans as only one pole or another on a range of expressions, we do so.

We do do we?

I do no such thing. I categorise on sex. Always sex. The sex of a person is important to me, the gender expression I couldn't give a flying fuck about that. Gender expression isn't going to harm me! The above is all about how one male human sees things and does not reflect at all the way this woman, and the women I know, sees things.

Oh, you know. A formless miasma of compliant submissiveness in fuck-me heels. As you do.

Help, I'm wearing joggers, a hoodie, trainers, and some make-up, my hair is longish. My next two social events are a football match and knit and natter. Help please categorise in a public toilet before I wet myself 😳

I had a pink hoodie. I left it in WH Smith one day and never saw it again. I might get a pink one again but for now I am mainly wearing my blue one. That is My Fascinating Gender Journey, thanks for reading.

How does being a man feel Bez? Was transitioning difficult?

how we transition from one shit solution to a slightly less shit one?

I don't think turning female only spaces into mixed sex spaces is "less shit". I think it is considerably more shit. The vast majority of people don't have a gender presentation, just a sex. Making a large chunk of 51% of the population unhappy to appease >0.5% is not a less shit solution, it's just less shit for you.

Butterfly do you care how women feel? Genuine question. Do you care when women are hurt or frightened?