Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

And actually the last few posts are exactly why I started the poll, because as soon as any poster deviates from the biological sex in all circumstances line, they get a grilling as if they are in charge, and I think that puts posters with different views off sharing them.
I just wanted to see how many posters share that view without putting posters in a position where they get a lot of questions.
To that end I'm not answering any more questions about my own views, I'm entitled to hold them and don't feel up to a bunfight today.

What’s your partner’s position on using male spaces, where Muslim men could reasonably expect to be in a single sex place?

I have concerns about the bringing of ethnic minority needs to the discussion. I’m torn because I wouldn’t want women to be excluded from anywhere because trans women are using those spaces. Equally I am unhappy about religious restrictions on women mixing with men.

I support single sex spaces for safety and dignity, not for religious practice.

Ah, sorry. Too late to ask 😂

The value would be that without answers to some of these questions the poll is pointless. A definition of who you mean by 'trans people', for example, would seem pretty central to how many people would answer the poll.

Similarly a better defined idea of what you imagine the social & work contexts are where people should be treated in a particular way or have access to particular services or groups may influence how people answer. Should transwomen have access to programmes designed to address underrepresentation of women in a particular workforce? Are those the groups you mean?

It's entirely disingenuous to say 'here's a poll, but I'm not prepared to flesh out what I mean by the options'

I won't be bothering. Nonsensical poll as it stands without clarifications.

Besides, I think all six of us have voted already. (Excluding Lark and her alleged socks)

The option of the current law - access to all single-sex spaces unless there is a legitimate and proportionate reason to exclude them is not there. So it's "other" for me.

Lots of people have answered (297 just now) so the options can't be that bad! Not twisting anyone's arm, if you don't want to answer don't bother

I won't. HtH.

I can't think of any group for women in which it would be appropriate to include a man just because he claims to want to be a woman.

I was struggling with this too. Everything I can think of is either sex-based or about being in a minority group in a workplace. And being a woman is a totally different experience to being a tw, so not sure a woman plus tw group focused on issues of being part of a minority makes much sense (and again the minority woman experience comes down either to sex based issues or else to sexist/gendered workplace assumptions which will be different for woman/tw).

Lots of crap polls on the Internet get multiple responses, and none of them tell us anything. That's why proper researchers take time to develop robust surveys,

I voted 3 because even though 2 sounds better on paper it leaves the door open to endless lobbying about what qualifies as a situation where ‘biology is important’. And we have seen how the trans lobbys behave…

If a “single sex space” is open to anyone of the other sex, it’s a mixed sex space.

Can you outline the kinds of situations where you'd see it as legitimate and proportionate to exclude TW from women's spaces?

I find that some advocates of the status quo are exploiting the inherent ambiguity- they claim that single sex spaces are theoretically possible in order to sound reasonable, but actually there are vanishingly few circumstances where they'd actually accept exclusion was reasonable.

Should transwomen have access to programmes designed to address underrepresentation of women in a particular workforce?
On this one - on the face of it social, but we need to dig into why women are disadvantaged in the first place. And a lot of that comes back to biological differences one way or another. Not least previous current or potential for future pregnancy.

Option 2 suggests that they be [t]reated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts.

So does this mean the Women's Institute and similar organisations have to accept male transitioners?

I have actually plumped for option 3 now on the basis that it talks about accommodations.

So as their birth sex, with accommodations. Accommodations would be ensuring women are at disadvantaged for failing to be feminine, that men aren’t disadvantaged or treated rudely for being feminine, and that everyone is respectful to everyone else.

It sometimes feels as though the options are presented as ‘give trans identifying people everything they ask for’ and ‘isolate and shame trans identifying people’.

i’d probably go with option 2, but i also think it’s a farce that men can wear a dress and a bit of lipstick and we’re expected to pander to it by calling them she and her. people can do what they like but i don’t feel other people should be forced to play along with it.

Other:

As their preferred sex when it doesn't matter. If people are willing to go along with the pretense or where they pass. I run a club with lots of trans members, it's not an issue (but I have had to stand up for other people's right to 'misgender').

3rd spaces for toilets and prisons.

Sex based in sport, medical equality programmes and anywhere else it really matters.

That's what transgender people want ie transwomen (men) want to use women's toilets which would make them mixed sex. Same with changing rooms, etc.

So keep separate single sex for biological women who want/need them (space 1)

and single sex spaces for biological men who want/need them (space 2)

and accessible spaces for those who need them (space 3)

and mixed sex spaces for people of any gender, non binary, no gender, gender allies, women happy to share with transwomen, men with small children, etc. Lots of people would use them I'm sure (space 4)

@Underthinker Can you outline the kinds of situations where you'd see it as legitimate and proportionate to exclude TW from women's spaces?

The first thing to say is that providers can chose to exclude trans women from women's spaces - they do not have to. So, a rape crisis center can be trans inclusive or trans exclusive (LAP). Various sporting bodies can decide whether transgender people can compete and under what conditions, and religious bodies can exclude transgender people if that's what their beliefs say. I don't have an issue with these. There may well be other examples.

Personally I don't think transwomen should have access. I don't think any woman has been disadvantaged because she 'felt like a woman'. It's broadly a combination of socialisation, education and presumed fertility. None of which apply to transwomen.

It also raises the question of what about the nbs? Do the male NBs have access or just the female ones, because if it's just the latter, that acknowledges the issue is sex-based.

I mean using pronouns and new names, supporting them to attend events for their acquired sex, generally creating an inclusive atmosphere for trans people wherever that doesn't cause a dignity or safety issue for women.

It's not just dignity or safety though is it.

It's things like, oh I don't know, Phillip Bunce, the Head of Global Markets at Credit Suisse being on the Financial Times 2018 top 100 women in business list.

He's not even a transwoman. Or a woman.

He just sometimes comes to work in a dress.

Good job this is for interest rather than research purposes
AIBU must be very stressful for you

@DadJoke Hi yes I can pretty easily outline the places I think are legitimate to exclude TW - any and every service that claims to be a single sex women's service. If there is a valid reason for a space or service to be sex segregated, it should be exactly that, segregated by sex. The vast majority of services and public spaces aren't segregated by sex and so trans people aren't inconvenienced there.