Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

I voted for option two as I think third spaces/categories could serve well (even if to neatly demonstrate that men aren’t genuinely interested in competing or being safe, they’re interested in invading women’s spaces/categories).

Given that option three says “People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this” I assume that “Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts,” is probably largely about pronouns and maintaining a polite fiction.

However, I don’t think we should ever be required to maintain that polite fiction. I believe there would be times when I would do so, but it would be entirely dependent upon there being mutual respect and I would reserve the right to speak the truth when I considered it necessary or appropriate. I think there are some men who would bully women (because they enjoy it) using any rules that stipulated that preferred pronouns must be used.

That’s not how societies function cohesively. The ways that individual lives are lived have wider repercussions.

Surely nobody would make a case for 1).

No TW needs to sign up for a smear test for example. They don't need to be asked to take a pregnancy test. They will never need checking for ovarian cancer. They may be parents but will never be patients on the postnatal ward. However extreme your views, biology must be /sometimes/ relevant.

So then the question is just about where the boundaries lie. Do you say no to lying with pronouns? Or do you just say no when women are in a particularly vulnerable situation like a rape crisis centre or prison cell? Do you draw lines according to how much dedication an individual gives to the idea that they are the opposite sex e.g. consistency over time, GRC, surgeries? Or is it whatever the person says in the moment? Do you make distinctions between women identifying as men and men identifying as women given that in general women are the more vulnerable group who extra protections are given to? And always what are you going to do with people who identify as one of the other 71 genders if you do want to have anything sorted by gender instead of sex? You'll probably need those third spaces even in the most Option1-leaning society possible.

At any point where you move away from biological sex, you also need to ask yourself whether there's any justification to treating "genders" differently at all. If you're using gender not sex it's clearly not because of biological differences. So that's a challenge to any Option1-leaning answers.

The answer may not be the same in all situations.

For example it makes a lot of sense to have sports Open and Female Only. A woman taking part in men's sports is not unduly advantaged, she's disadvantaged and if she can keep up good for her. A third space doesn't really work though if trans people can muster enough for the odd exhibition match then knock yourselves out. And NB races are clearly just another category for males to win.

But if it helps people to have a few extra, private 3rd spaces in the changing room area then why not, that seems a reasonable accommodation to ask for.

Just to answer some questions, I started the thread because I'm genuinely interested, I'd say option 3 is the "loudest" voice on here but I'm option 2 so wanted to know if I was in a minority and if so how much.

Didn't give my opinion at the outset because I couldn't be arsed with 5 million questions making me justify it, that's not the point at all.

I have no intention of putting this on the Internet.
Thanks to all who responded

OK some people were asking about option 2. Really hard to write as there will be lots of disagreement.
I wanted to give an option between trans people must be treated identically to their identified sex, and biological reality trumps gender identity in all circumstances. The precise detail of what that means is less important because there are unclear boundaries and I didn't want to distract from the question.

Even split between 2 and 3 at the moment which is interesting

I voted 3 even though I support 3rd spaces in many contexts but not to the detriment of disability access or female equality and safety.

Couldn't vote 2 because of what you said about work and social.

Firstly, often when people claim to treat trans people as their acquired sex they don't. They just mean they perform pronouns. In reality, men get pandered to and women overlooked. Same old.

Secondly I can't equate 3rd spaces with "treating the same at work". My opinion coloured by the fact I work with children and this would be a safeguarding issue AND the fact I've experienced maternity discrimination.

What do mixed sex toilets solve?

Saying "I want to hear what less vocal posters think" isn't saying I "don’t want the more vocal members of the board to be heard". I want to hear both, not one side. Odd you would misrepresent me.

I am working (on a lunch break) so any deletions are nothing to do with me because I haven't been reporting.

Just have to point out that this is the internet 😂

I’m not misrepresenting you. I am saying how I have read your comment. You have put a connotation on to my comment just as I have on yours. You want to see what less vocal members think. I have put the connotation on your post that you don’t want the vocal members to comment or participate in your poll.

Men and women are always treated differently at work. Part of the reason I'm a feminist!
I mean using pronouns and new names, supporting them to attend events for their acquired sex, generally creating an inclusive atmosphere for trans people wherever that doesn't cause a dignity or safety issue for women.
I don't think its controversial but lots of other posters disagree, which is fine. Like I say, not interested in details really, just wanted to see the split of opinion.

Yeah IKR. Thought that was stupid when I wrote it! I'm not posting anywhere else on the Internet 😂

Well let's clear that up - I absolutely do! I just wanted to know the balance of views.

And saying "the fact op has said..." followed by something I didn't say is a misrepresentation. How come you think you did that if it wasn't intentional?

Well if someone genuinely believes they are the opposite sex, then I think they should be treated with psychotherapy to address their mental health problem, in the same way we treat people who believe they are aliens or Napolean or a secret royal etc etc.

Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)

Maybe the fact that it is 'hard to write' should have given you pause for thought.

To bunch waxing & smear tests together as 'intimate services' is just plain weird. One is a medical screening process.

You still don't really explain what the 'most social and work contexts' are that require people to be treated differently on the basis of their sex. Do you mean toilets in an office building for example? If so do you change your mind if Muslim men & women use those single-sex facilities to wash before praying? Or do you mean that if a man wants to wear a skirt as part of a uniform they should be able to? And let's face it, despite saying 'trans people' you mean transwomen.

They solve the trans problem. And are useful for anyone who needs an opposite sex companion such as a child or person with disabilities. Unisex toilets are great. They just shouldn't have abolished the ladies at the same time.

To engage with the q, some variant of 2 although I echo that a workplace shouldn’t be treating someone as a particular sex unless it is relevant. Not sure what OP has in mind, unless it’s trivial stuff like calling someone Mr or Ms.
Perhaps places with gendered uniforms, but then I think these are ridiculous if it goes beyond ensuring sensible fit for differently sexed bodies.
but 2 covers a vast array of scenarios, some I’d agree with and some disagree with.

You wrote “I want to see what less vocal posters think” that’s a fact. It’s in your OP. My interpretation of that was that you didn’t want to hear from the more “vocal posters”. You have said that was not your intention. Why do you need more from me?

I’ve put other, but I may mean 3.

I want an end to discrimination based on gender. People can wear whatever they like but stick to sex based categories where they exist.

I don’t believe people can ‘acquire’ the other sex.

I do believe mean and women can present however they like.

I don’t believe special provision should be made for people who choose to present in an unusual way.

If Jill wants to wear a sharp suit and a crop, fine. If John wants to wear a dress, ok.

Neither John nor Jill need special treatment and both need to face the consequences of their choices, just as those with pink hair piercings and a tattoo do.

As time goes on the boundaries will shift, bankers will have facial piercings and creatives will have moved on to ‘valuing the integrity of their skin’ and be all pure and milky.

Fashion is just that.

I'm not disputing that men and women are often treated differently, both at work and elsewhere. My question was when do you think it might be appropriate to treat a man who wants to be a woman as though he actually is a woman?

What sort of events for their acquired sex are you thinking of? Support groups for women going through the menopause? A social group for lesbians? I can't think of any group for women in which it would be appropriate to include a man just because he claims to want to be a woman.

It makes more sense that chopping off their bits and pretending to play along with their nonsense.

I meant giving a smear, not receiving one or providing waxing. I thought if I didn't give examples people would think I was euphemistically referring to prostitution

You said providing or receiving. Way to ignore the rest of the post though. Top work

I don't see what value trying to answer your questions brings. We both have our own opinions, that's fine.
And I do mean trans people, but the debate around shared spaces is most relevant to women (so applie to trans women) as trans men don't cause the same risks in men's spaces. So I slipped up in the OP.