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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's have a poll!

403 replies

AdamRyan · 31/01/2024 08:27

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think Smile

Options:

  1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
  2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
  3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
  4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 02/02/2024 20:27

All these mental gymnastics and virtual limboing under and around poles gets nobody anywhere.

Men. Let's just call them men.

And women who marry them have every right not to continue to be married to them if they decide to manipulate paperwork to pretend to be something they are not.

NotBadConsidering · 02/02/2024 21:30

lifeturnsonadime · 02/02/2024 13:03

so what's the point in a GRC then?

Legal women but not women is absolutely unworkable.

Edited

Exactly. If you’re going to tell men they have to go in the men’s space or the special feelz 3rd space regardless, then there’s absolutely no need for a legal process that gives them a certificate that certifies a falsehood (“lived as a woman” for a year).

Just tell them to stay out of the women’s spaces😵‍💫

Which is what I would do. A GRC is no more “truth” than self-ID. Why should effort be expended to come up with solutions for men who have chosen a different pathway of false declaration just because it’s been given an air of authority? Why should feminists protect this group over another? It still hasn’t been made clear.

It comes back to the theme of the thread. Without clear definitions of “trans” it’s putting the cart before the horse. It’s legal wrangling, word mangling, angsting, 400+ posts of multiple threads over years achieving nothing.

And clear definitions of “trans” and other gender words can’t be given because they rely on being a believer. Any definition given falls down because it has to be workable for non-believers too.

The bottom line is that the entire debate is centred around what to do after a man has declared a certain falsehood about himself instead of asking why anyone should care about taking his declaration seriously and moving beyond that.

”Trans” is, by Stonewall’s definition, an umbrella term. It includes:

Cross dressing heterosexual men
AGP men
Homosexual transsexuals
Distressed adolescent girls
Rigid young adults with ASD
People with body dysmorphia
Children with confusion around sexual identity

And so on. How can such a group with such diametrically opposed motivations and needs be lumped together needing a set of rights?

This is where the OP (and many others before) has failed and has failed to acknowledge this. Answer this question first, establish whose requirements we are talking about, then we can have a poll on the options and debate them. This was asked on the first page.

The only reason not to do this would be the argument that this horse has bolted too, and that these men are out there and need dealing with now. I can see that argument but I would disagree. We are in this mess because of the mangled legally dubious language of the GRA in the first place. “Live as a woman”🙄. No one thought that through. There’s zero point of coming up with new options without properly thinking things through and acknowledging that “trans” needs a legally workable definition representing a clear group of people is step one of properly thinking things through.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 02/02/2024 21:33

AlisonDonut · 02/02/2024 20:27

All these mental gymnastics and virtual limboing under and around poles gets nobody anywhere.

Men. Let's just call them men.

And women who marry them have every right not to continue to be married to them if they decide to manipulate paperwork to pretend to be something they are not.

Bingo.

Also, no-one has any business pronouncing on how to improve the spousal exit clause, usually misnamed the spousal veto, if they haven't consulted with the primary stakeholders: trans widows.

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