Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

Stop lying

Stop gaslighting

You started talking about the patriarchy when you decided you didn't like the poll results. I have no idea why, but it seems like word games to me.

And the other side of that is that no one recognised or supported me to feel included by society. Thats not how life works

They did though, you just take it for granted.
Feminists campaigned and got the vote so you can participate in democratic society.

Feminists got legal structures in place so women aren't forced to quit work when they marry/have children. Feminists made it so women could have a bank account and mortgage on their own. Therefore you can be financially independent.

Feminists campaigned for public loos for women so they could fully participate in society and weren't subject to a "urinary leash".

Without those things we'd all be stuck at home, property of our husbands and father's and unable to live our own lives.

I am not sure what you are talking about. I love the poll. It's very interesting. And the thread was very interesting too until people started with the scolding.
Anyway clearly I've hit a massive nerve with you, I apologise.

So @AdamRyan characterises women who ask questions or challenge or seek clarification as variously shouting, demanding and scolding. Nice

No I'm answering questions, but its following the usual path of requiring even more answers, straw men, and scolding rather than being productive.
We are edging ever closer to the moment someone calls me a TRA/a labour plant/a bot or similar. Very tedious.

There is a simpler explanation for traditional homophobia, and legislation against male homosexuality.

In misogynistic cultures where heterosexual men's sexual desires are more important than women's consent, straight men fear that strong gay men will treat physically weaker men as men treat women.

Straight men outnumber gay men, so it's easy for men to set a social norm forbidding visible homosexuality. Then that norm is turned into legislation when the culture hits that point of development.

I'm a woman. Why am I not allowed to post here with a different opinion without being shouted down? Or are only women who think the right thing allowed to post? Advanced search me or report me if you don't believe me.

In misogynistic cultures where heterosexual men's sexual desires are more important than women's consent, straight men fear that strong gay men will treat physically weaker men as men treat women.

Exactly this! I would call the "misogynistic culture" the patriarchy, but its the same thing.

I didn't suggest you weren't a woman. To quote you "I've seen quite horrible misogyny from women".

No one is 'shouting you down'. You're being asked to clarify your frankly all over the place position

Everything that is violent, aggressive, bad, not nice, or undesirable is down to 'the patriarchy'?

Why have the beneficiaries got to be white males? What about cultures or social groups were black males dominate and use women, or societies such as Afghanistan were women are forbidden from using public parks? Is that the fault of white men too? Besides most 'white men' do not hold "disproportionate" power.

This is all very rudimentary intersectionalist politics. -which is why it has a hard time standing up to scrutiny.

I think @AdamRyan's position is to agree with option 2 which is (with added clarification from the thread)

Third spaces: [trans people, who are people who feel they are the opposite sex should be ] Treated as their acquired sex [the sex the feel themselves to be] in most social and work contexts [for example using preferred pronouns or attending notionally single-sex events - unclear what these may be], use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests) [However access to these third spaces should be restricted only to some transpeople, for example prison third spaces should be restricted to only those transpeople with a GRC, and access to a GRC should only be given to those with no history of sexual or violent offending. It's unclear where a third space would be used & where treated as birth sex would be]

So transpeople are treated as their 'acquired sex' most of the time, except for all the times they aren't and even in these cases transpeople wouldn't be accommodated in any kind of consistent manner. I don't know why anyone is finding this unclear

Power tends to accumulate when a society or culture develops technology or more advanced systems of travel, or military strategy. It hasn't always been 'white men'. Wars have been waged and there have been empires going back to neolithic times in all cultures and continents.

I’d probably be OK personally with “urinal rooms” so that men can pee quickly and conveniently without slowing down the queues for WCs, plus shared WCs which anyone can use (individual rooms each with WC and washing facilities), plus women’s only WCs for actual women (which could have shared washing facilities). I think you would still need more women’s WCs than shared ones.

This should work for all women, including of course transmen, and for the vast majority of men. But would it work for transwomen? Of course not, because some would still argue that they need access to the women’s WCs. We need politicians to recognise that those people are not being reasonable

You'll excuse me if I see a huge difference between
A) attributing homophobia to men's expectations that other men of their tribe/social group/culture, including the gay ones, will follow their social norm that might makes right and that men are entitled to rape their social inferiors, i.e. most women
B) attributing homophobia to gay people not "conform[ing] with patriarchal expectations"

The homophobia derives from an expectation that gay men will conform; that gay men won't challenge the social mores, and will consider themselves sexually entitled!

I think it should be 3, but 2 will do if they stop banging on about it.

This is all very rudimentary intersectionalist politics. -which is why it has a hard time standing up to scrutiny.

It is. This is a good article in the Critic today by Victoria Smith.

On one hand, students are demanding “safe spaces”, according to the New York Times, “replete with cookies, colouring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies”, should they be on the same campus as someone discussing rape in a way they dislike.
On the other, increasing numbers graduate fully prepared to educate the world on why female-only spaces are no longer needed, why lesbians need to overcome their genital preferences, and why someone getting his penis out in the ladies’ isn’t flashing unless he says so.
Focusing on the minor details of consent and trauma has not just given conservatives an excuse to portray anti-rape activism as extremist and infantilising. Doing so has become a distraction whilst the foundations of feminist thought are blown apart. The male head of a Scottish Rape Crisis organisation tells female victims to “reframe your trauma”.
A convicted sex offender exposes himself to a girl in a Los Angeles spa, and the Guardian frets over any discussion leading to “anti-trans hate”. The journalist Owen Jones watches a video of the 7 October atrocities and muses over whether you can really know whether a slaughtered women with her underwear removed was raped. But all of these people probably think the Play-Doh and puppies are great. It is insane, but at the same time, there is a logic to it.

thecritic.co.uk/lets-at-least-agree-rape-is-wrong/

Apologies @RebelliousCow I meant to quote. Sometimes it removes my formatting when I format a different paragraph.

My position isn't "all over the place". I just am not prepared to get attacked on here when I spell it out in detail.

Extreme positions are always easier to articulate than middle positions which is why the debate is polarised. I'm interested in how many people support some form of accommodation for trans people, that's why I started the poll. I'm not particularly interested in either pushing my personal opinion as "the right answer" or having other peoples "right answers" forced on me via aggressive questioning.

I'm not an intersectional feminist and what I'm saying is not intersectional feminism. It's class based feminism which is different. So what you've quoted bears no resemblance whatsoever to my position.

This is where I am: Rad Fem in the true sense of the word

https://www.radfemcollective.org/what-is-radical-feminism

I don't think those are mutually exclusive statements? I think both are true and stem from the patriarchy

Hmm. Strangely defensive of the uncontroversial idea that white men are the most powerful social group (in the UK and in the world as a whole). What's the issue with pointing out the glaringly obvious?

I think it is a very crude analysis which is typical of intersectionalism at its most rudimentary.

1. Do you agree there is a position that exists between 1 (TWAW) and 3 (TWA never W)? If not then there's no point really discussing what I mean by 2, it's always going to annoy you.
2. If there is a position 2, how would you articulate that position for the purposes of seeing how many people adopt it?
3. Just assume for the purposes of this poll, I meant whatever you answered in 2, it's easier and achieves the same purpose.

Hopefully then we can get back to other people sharing their position in a more thoughtful way.