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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's have a poll!

403 replies

AdamRyan · 31/01/2024 08:27

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think Smile

Options:

  1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
  2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
  3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
  4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 16:25

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:19

I think it is a very crude analysis which is typical of intersectionalism at its most rudimentary.

That's not an answer to my question Grin

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 16:27

Interestingly the poll gap is closing again now we are on UK time (43% option 2, 50% option 3). Fascinating to see the differences between UK daytime posters and UK night time posters. I would love to know where respondents are based

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/02/2024 16:27

Yes it is, you asked what the issue was with posting in that way, @RebelliousCow replied to you that she finds it too simplistic. You asked a question and she answered.

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 16:42

I asked what the issue was with pointing out the glaringly obvious - I.e. white men have most power in the UK and globally

She disagrees with the statement as its "simplistic" when it's just a statement of fact. It seems like a deflection and I'm curious as to why she wants to deflect. Not a common tactic from feminists to deflect attention from that kind of imbalance.

I wonder if me saying "white" or "men" that's causing the issue?

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 01/02/2024 16:58

@AdamRyan

Read what I said. I said people, not TRAs. I said I've been called a TRA in the past for being in the middle.
I would say I'm GC, so it's very jarring to be called a TRA.

I'm not suggesting you are a TRA, I'm talking about groups like Stonewall. They don't want to meet in the middle.

BackToLurk · 01/02/2024 17:07

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 16:23

  1. Do you agree there is a position that exists between 1 (TWAW) and 3 (TWA never W)? If not then there's no point really discussing what I mean by 2, it's always going to annoy you.
  2. If there is a position 2, how would you articulate that position for the purposes of seeing how many people adopt it?
  3. Just assume for the purposes of this poll, I meant whatever you answered in 2, it's easier and achieves the same purpose.

Hopefully then we can get back to other people sharing their position in a more thoughtful way.

How do you legislate for the middle position, which is presumably yours and amounts to TWA sometimes women. What does that even mean?

I'd argue that calling a transperson by the name they have chosen, for example, is very little to do with treating them as their acquired sex. It's just basic politeness, and treating them no differently to anyone else who wants to be known by a new name. Pronouns tend to be used when a person isn't present, although not always. If someone wants to be referred to by different pronouns then theoretically there isn't a problem. However, increasingly the pronouns are used to signal 'look I'm a real woman, therefore I should have access to all the womanly things '. I think that's where many people's objections come from. Beyond that I can't see anywhere that it would be appropriate to treat transpeople as their 'acquired sex' where they are not already just being treated as an individual (ie where sex is not relevant).

Take a female only networking group for example. If these are set up to give space to woman away from male people, because of how male people are raised, what their expectations are, how they interact in the workplace etc, I don't see the rationale for also including anyone who feels they are a woman (your definition of a transperson). Maybe if you could explain your rationale in including them in some groups it may help.

Signalbox · 01/02/2024 17:09

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 13:11

I didn't use the term "white" in the bit you quoted. Globally as a whole, straight white men. In individual countries, straight men hold most power, but ethnicity can vary depending on culture.

You’re being a bit slippery with language OP.

Your previous definition of patriarchy referred specifically to straight white men.

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 17:13

Signalbox · 01/02/2024 17:09

You’re being a bit slippery with language OP.

Your previous definition of patriarchy referred specifically to straight white men.

This one? I've bolded the operative phrase, I'm in the UK so was referring to UK society as I clarified later.

systems and structures that uphold our society where straight white males hold a disproportionate amount of power.

I think I'm being pretty clear TBH, still not sure what it is that's getting up peoples noses. It's irrelevant to the thread anyway

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 17:16

BackToLurk · 01/02/2024 17:07

How do you legislate for the middle position, which is presumably yours and amounts to TWA sometimes women. What does that even mean?

I'd argue that calling a transperson by the name they have chosen, for example, is very little to do with treating them as their acquired sex. It's just basic politeness, and treating them no differently to anyone else who wants to be known by a new name. Pronouns tend to be used when a person isn't present, although not always. If someone wants to be referred to by different pronouns then theoretically there isn't a problem. However, increasingly the pronouns are used to signal 'look I'm a real woman, therefore I should have access to all the womanly things '. I think that's where many people's objections come from. Beyond that I can't see anywhere that it would be appropriate to treat transpeople as their 'acquired sex' where they are not already just being treated as an individual (ie where sex is not relevant).

Take a female only networking group for example. If these are set up to give space to woman away from male people, because of how male people are raised, what their expectations are, how they interact in the workplace etc, I don't see the rationale for also including anyone who feels they are a woman (your definition of a transperson). Maybe if you could explain your rationale in including them in some groups it may help.

So it sounds like you do disagree there is/should be a middle position. In which case there's no point me saying anything.

I'm happy to discuss my views if you think a middle position is possible, but you need to go first. What would that look like to you?

OP posts:
Signalbox · 01/02/2024 17:24

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 17:13

This one? I've bolded the operative phrase, I'm in the UK so was referring to UK society as I clarified later.

systems and structures that uphold our society where straight white males hold a disproportionate amount of power.

I think I'm being pretty clear TBH, still not sure what it is that's getting up peoples noses. It's irrelevant to the thread anyway

OK so you were referring only to the UK. I don’t think that was entirely clear and I read “our society” as meaning “society as a whole”. A person’s ethnicity is irrelevant really isn’t it?

BackToLurk · 01/02/2024 17:28

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 17:16

So it sounds like you do disagree there is/should be a middle position. In which case there's no point me saying anything.

I'm happy to discuss my views if you think a middle position is possible, but you need to go first. What would that look like to you?

I think that NOW a middle position is hard to imagine. As I said, too many people for example see the use of female pronouns as confirmation that TWA actually W and should therefore be treated as such in every situation. The annoying thing is, we basically had a middle position. TW were largely accommodated in some spaces, nobody pretended they were really women and they generally didn't take the piss. You could still argue that if Bob became Margaret and wanted to join the local women's knitting club and EVERY MEMBER of the group was happy, then Margaret could join. But I'm not sure you should be compelling the group to let Margaret join, and they may find that Arthur wants to join, even though Arthur is just an ordinary fella.

BackToLurk · 01/02/2024 17:49

Just to say @AdamRyan it's a bit odd to take a stance of 'if you agree with me about a middle position I'll tell you more about my views, but if you dont, I won't ". Never take up campaigning.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2024 18:59

BackToLurk · 01/02/2024 17:49

Just to say @AdamRyan it's a bit odd to take a stance of 'if you agree with me about a middle position I'll tell you more about my views, but if you dont, I won't ". Never take up campaigning.

That's almost the Starmer position, lol.

If you agree that men are sometimes women then we can have a conversation.

Adam are you Starmer?

[tongue in cheek I KNOW you are a woman] ....

Signalbox · 01/02/2024 19:06

I'm happy to discuss my views if you think a middle position is possible, but you need to go first. What would that look like to you?

I think if trans activists wanted to campaign for a middle position and third spaces this could possibly work and they would probably have made much more progress than they have right now and there would have been a lot less push back.

For me a middle position would need to come from a starting point of reality where women and feminists aren't berated for stating that TW are men.

A middle position might introduce additional toilet and changing room and hospital provision that accommodated those who are not comfortable sharing spaces with their own sex.

It would mean additional sporting categories that would allow those men who are not content to compete in the male category to compete separately from other men (this could include males with DSDs) (Obviously this doesn't progress women's equality because it would create an additional male category so more opportunities for men but if it keeps men out of female sports it's a compromise I could live with.)

Male prisons would need to make some provision for males who are especially at risk from male violence to keep them safe. This might include some of those men who claim to be women but obviously not all of them because some of those men are extremely nasty dangerous characters and not remotely vulnerable.

The main difficulty is that this middle position isn't really what trans activists want is it? If organisations like Stonewall and Mermaids are not behind a campaign that support this how is it likely to progress? Feminists who call for a middle ground and third spaces are just called TERF or bigot.

How do you envision a middle position and how do you see it working when the people who it is created to support reject it so vehemently?

NotBadConsidering · 01/02/2024 19:29

My position isn't "all over the place". I just am not prepared to get attacked on here when I spell it out in detail.

The thread has gone down the path of your definition of patriarchy, which means it’s been forgotten that your definition of trans people who feminists have a shared interest in protecting from your debatably defined patriarchy includes Karen White and Katie Dolatowski.

So yes, I think “all over the place” is fair.

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 19:38

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 16:42

I asked what the issue was with pointing out the glaringly obvious - I.e. white men have most power in the UK and globally

She disagrees with the statement as its "simplistic" when it's just a statement of fact. It seems like a deflection and I'm curious as to why she wants to deflect. Not a common tactic from feminists to deflect attention from that kind of imbalance.

I wonder if me saying "white" or "men" that's causing the issue?

I don't agree with the 'finding' which results from your analysis - and that is becaue I also find fault with the position which under-pins your analysis.
For me crude intersectionalist analysis is the issue. It rests on a supposition of 'oppressor groups' and 'oppressed groups'. It is a very particular way of looking at society and at culture which doesn't leave any room for alternative explanation or perspective.

I can see how in some circumstances, and in certain times in history or in specific cultures it may/could have be useful, but no longer find it either useful or helpful myself. It tends to posit certian groups as essentially problematical - and I don't buy that.

Jux · 01/02/2024 19:46

3 really, but I'd still treat a TW 'as a woman' (pronouns, etc) individually from basic courtesy.

Snowypeaks · 01/02/2024 19:55

Going back a bit, I'm going to have to disagree that feminists should support males who claim to be women because they are victims of the patriarchy just like us. Firstly, I don't think many of them are victims of the patriarchy - as others have said, being able to redefine the category of woman to include male people if they want to is an expression of male power. Males claiming to be women were not leading lights in the battle for women's liberation/equality, depending on what sort of feminist you are. They often have very traditional gendered ideas about women, not to mention an obsession with porn. So they didn't and don't fight for us, but we should fight for them?
Also, of course women campaigned for other women to have the vote, to have women-only shelters, equal pay and to be equal members of society (a bit of a way to go there!). But this was all about removing artificial barriers for women. There was a point when women were not allowed to vote, or make a complaint of rape if they were married to the rapist, or sue their employer if they were sacked for becoming pregnant or even just getting married. What are the barriers set up by society to restrict the life choices and careers of men who claim to be women? None, I would suggest. Or at least, none not faced by men in general.
They are protected by the Equality Act. There has never been a time when they were not permitted to vote or own property because of having an inner feeling about what sex they were. The GRA recognises them as legally female on the back of a very straightforward process. (I think it should be repealed, by the way.) They benefit from all the advantages of being male. (How many women who claim a trans identity are voted Man of the Year, or Best Actor, or Businessman of the Year? How many head up male penile cancer or Shed groups? And yet, despite the relatively small numbers of men claiming to be women, they are routinely catapulted to the top of women's organisations, awarded prizes and given opportunities intended for women.)

The only hurdles they face are the moral and legal bars on invading women's spaces, or being accepted as lesbians. Why should feminists help them overcome those hurdles? How could it be done without harming women? I don't think it could be, more to the point I don't think those barriers should be broken down. Those demands go well beyond ordinary fairness or equal opportunities.

Regarding the patriarchy, I always understood it to mean a society which is based on the wants and needs of adult men, with very little regard for women and girls and to some extent boys. Talking worldwide, here. It is enforced in the first instance by social rules and in the last resort by male violence - this is the importance of sex differences. Wealth and class play into this of course, and in most but not all cases, sexual orientation (think of the Greeks - homosexuality would have been a meaningless idea to them since free born adult males slept with whoever they wanted to for pleasure and with women for heirs - and pleasure). Wealthy white males are at the top of the status tree in the Anglosphere and Europe, I would guess, and the population of the global north is higher status than that of the global south. But this is all a long-winded way of saying that I see patriarchy as about the primacy of men. The poorest, the least regarded, the most disposable members of any society are always women. So I do think the term still applies to the UK and practically every country on earth, sadly.

Winnading · 01/02/2024 20:17

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 09:11

Men don't need feminists to solve their problems, the issue is (most) men don't see it as a problem as male violence and intimidation doesn't impact them and they get the benefits of living in a patriarchy.

So it is up to feminists to raise the issues if we want any chance of change (which I do).

It's like we havent tried this already, and we were so succesful in lobbying the govt, making single sex spaces, women only prisons..,. Oh wait.

lifeturnsonadime · 01/02/2024 20:34

Snowypeaks · 01/02/2024 19:55

Going back a bit, I'm going to have to disagree that feminists should support males who claim to be women because they are victims of the patriarchy just like us. Firstly, I don't think many of them are victims of the patriarchy - as others have said, being able to redefine the category of woman to include male people if they want to is an expression of male power. Males claiming to be women were not leading lights in the battle for women's liberation/equality, depending on what sort of feminist you are. They often have very traditional gendered ideas about women, not to mention an obsession with porn. So they didn't and don't fight for us, but we should fight for them?
Also, of course women campaigned for other women to have the vote, to have women-only shelters, equal pay and to be equal members of society (a bit of a way to go there!). But this was all about removing artificial barriers for women. There was a point when women were not allowed to vote, or make a complaint of rape if they were married to the rapist, or sue their employer if they were sacked for becoming pregnant or even just getting married. What are the barriers set up by society to restrict the life choices and careers of men who claim to be women? None, I would suggest. Or at least, none not faced by men in general.
They are protected by the Equality Act. There has never been a time when they were not permitted to vote or own property because of having an inner feeling about what sex they were. The GRA recognises them as legally female on the back of a very straightforward process. (I think it should be repealed, by the way.) They benefit from all the advantages of being male. (How many women who claim a trans identity are voted Man of the Year, or Best Actor, or Businessman of the Year? How many head up male penile cancer or Shed groups? And yet, despite the relatively small numbers of men claiming to be women, they are routinely catapulted to the top of women's organisations, awarded prizes and given opportunities intended for women.)

The only hurdles they face are the moral and legal bars on invading women's spaces, or being accepted as lesbians. Why should feminists help them overcome those hurdles? How could it be done without harming women? I don't think it could be, more to the point I don't think those barriers should be broken down. Those demands go well beyond ordinary fairness or equal opportunities.

Regarding the patriarchy, I always understood it to mean a society which is based on the wants and needs of adult men, with very little regard for women and girls and to some extent boys. Talking worldwide, here. It is enforced in the first instance by social rules and in the last resort by male violence - this is the importance of sex differences. Wealth and class play into this of course, and in most but not all cases, sexual orientation (think of the Greeks - homosexuality would have been a meaningless idea to them since free born adult males slept with whoever they wanted to for pleasure and with women for heirs - and pleasure). Wealthy white males are at the top of the status tree in the Anglosphere and Europe, I would guess, and the population of the global north is higher status than that of the global south. But this is all a long-winded way of saying that I see patriarchy as about the primacy of men. The poorest, the least regarded, the most disposable members of any society are always women. So I do think the term still applies to the UK and practically every country on earth, sadly.

Jennifer Lopez Applause GIF by NBC World Of Dance

This is a fantastic post.

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 20:37

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 19:38

I don't agree with the 'finding' which results from your analysis - and that is becaue I also find fault with the position which under-pins your analysis.
For me crude intersectionalist analysis is the issue. It rests on a supposition of 'oppressor groups' and 'oppressed groups'. It is a very particular way of looking at society and at culture which doesn't leave any room for alternative explanation or perspective.

I can see how in some circumstances, and in certain times in history or in specific cultures it may/could have be useful, but no longer find it either useful or helpful myself. It tends to posit certian groups as essentially problematical - and I don't buy that.

Edited

You don't agree that straight white men have most of the power in the UK?
Or you don't agree that cultural norms have arisen that allow that?
Or you think it's true but not an issue?

OP posts:
ChatBFP · 01/02/2024 22:14

Agreed @Signalbox

I think on reflection I am a 3 not a 3

ChatBFP · 01/02/2024 22:14

Sorry a 3 not a 2!

AdamRyan · 01/02/2024 22:16

NotBadConsidering · 01/02/2024 19:29

My position isn't "all over the place". I just am not prepared to get attacked on here when I spell it out in detail.

The thread has gone down the path of your definition of patriarchy, which means it’s been forgotten that your definition of trans people who feminists have a shared interest in protecting from your debatably defined patriarchy includes Karen White and Katie Dolatowski.

So yes, I think “all over the place” is fair.

Burning Animal Crossing GIF by Mashed

I don't want to protect Dolatowski and White

OP posts:
theilltemperedclavecinist · 01/02/2024 22:40

I feel everyone's been hard on OP, who is trying to do something interesting and useful. I read it as:

  1. Stonewall Rules
  1. As 1. with negotiated variations for safety, fairness and decency. I suspect this is where we'll end up IRL.
  1. Back to the 90s. I voted for this because I can't be doing with the argy-bargy implied by 2., but I don't see why 'trans' not having legal status stops us doing things like third spaces, education about tolerance, and helping people not make bad medical decisions.