Year 8 trans child - in secret

[WoollyMammoth1]

The recent news article about the trans child at a primary school made me think of sharing a similar story at my DD school, big difference being is that's a secondary school.
DD is in year 8, there's a child in her year that identifies as a girl but is a boy. No one at school, besides staff knows, DD doesn't know either as whilst I feel bad withholding the information, I don't want her to keep this secret at school.

The child has a sibling at the school, who calls him by his girl name. They change in the disabled changing room and use the disabled toilet.

I found out through social media, the parent came up as a possible contact, their profile is open and there were many pictures of her children when younger making it very clear. Absolutely no doubt.

When I first found out, I researched and found there is little I can do. The child's rights seem to trump all others.

DD and the child started building a friendship last year, but this went sour. Which I am glad for considering the circumstances.

My issue here is the deceit and secrecy. Non of the year group know the child is a boy which is such an obvious safeguarding risk, and once they find out they'll feel betrayed. Any friendships are based on a lie. And I feel like I am condoning the situation by not saying anything, esp to DD.

The child lives further from school then most other kids, likely to try and ensure there were no other children at the school that might know them.

It feels wrong to keep things quiet, esp for my daughters, and other girls in her year's sake, so hoping that someone here may have some good ideas in where to go from here.

(Long term Mumsnetter, name changed for this post)

If people knowing your sex is dangerous - then keeping it secret is even more dangerous, because it could (and at some point inevitably will) come out at an unpredictable time in an uncontrolled way. And you will create extra hostility because plenty of people who don't care what sex you are DO care about being lied to.

What a tangled web we weave.

Tangled indeed. And the OP says that they are in year 8 (12-13). The girls are just hitting puberty, starting their periods, growing breasts, having conversations that they would not want ANY male to have privy to.
And very shortly this boy will hit the huge male growth spurt, he will get hairy, his voice will drop...
I hope that all his teachers are ready for being exposed as the lying manipulators that they are. This is a 'social experiment' that should not be taking place in a civilised country. We all know what happened with the unfortunate Reimer twin (the one who was 'experimentally' brought up as a girl) - his peers described him as 'cavewoman' and shunned him.
The experiment was done once. It does not need repeating.

We should be focused on stopping bullying in schools and accepting people for who they are. Apparently years of "be kind" is just not working. No-one likes being lied to and pretending you are something you are not is one way to get bullied. Butterfly your insistence that everyone must bow to your whims may have contributed to your bullying. Kids like someone who considers their needs, not is "me, me, me " all the time.

This girl has, against heavily stacked odds, managed to find a way to escape the way that trans people are still to this day treated in school.

The child has escaped nothing. They (and their family and the school) have just postponed it, in a way that will only make it worse for the child when the truth comes out. They would be treated better - perhaps not perfectly, but better, and the school would be better able to put strategies in place - if they were honest from the start, with a plan for honesty and anti-bullying by the school before the child even started.

"We wont tell anyone and hope no-one says anything" is not a strategy.

It would be so, so much better if effeminate (awful word but we know what it means) boys could just be allowed to be themselves. One of my dds best friends at primary was a very effeminate little boy, he was fully accepted into her little friendship group, (at the age when they didn’t play with other boys) they used call him an ‘honorary girl’. I think it would have been quite different if he’d insisted that he actually was a girl, or had pretended and they’d later found the truth. They liked him as he was! As a parent the only difference it made was at sleepovers as they became older.

What’s maddening to me as the parent of a disabled child is this presumption that this child has the right to privacy but my child does not. Everyone and their dog knows what’s wrong with him, every adult gets told officially but they already always know. There are so so many presumptions about his disability and straight up stereotypes that are wrong but everyday he’s discussing it in public and providing answers (that he doesn’t often have). Why does the trans child get a shield of privacy. For their safety, yes, but disabled people face a world of hate and discrimination. And all the other protected characteristics. Snacks to me of being “special and amazing” just by being part of it.

I made this point earlier on this thread we all should be entitled to privacy.

I am sorry your child is subjected to this by adults who should know better.

@Propertylover sorry I missed it. To be honest it falls into the category of it would be great if we could expect privacy but he’s obviously disabled, he can’t pretend otherwise so we have to live in the world we live in. I don’t want to speak for others but I imagine it’s like when people say “they don’t see colour”, you bloody do you’re just trying to be clever about how not racist you are. I supposed that’s what it all boils down to, would be great if we all lived the life we wanted to without anyone else every having an impact but we don’t and pretending won’t make it so.

If we keep teaching children that their trans peers are aberrations to be shamed, decried and hounded out of public life then of course they'll keep acting like this.

My teachers couldn't even address the subject head-on or provide direct support due to Section 28. The best my form tutor could do was exempt me from PE lessons and listen when I talked. Most of the rest either laughed along with the bullies or had absolutely no interest in intervening. There was no insistence that people 'bow to my whims' - I never demanded anything from anyone. I just provided information if anyone earnestly seemed to be asking (the vast majority of the time, of course, they were doing so in bad faith).

There was only a timeless desire to lash out at and punish an easy target for being different. I don't think we can ever stop bullying entirely - those inclined that way seem to latch onto whatever they can find to tear someone else down - but there is a great deal we can do to educate people, reduce harm and ensure that bullies don't feel that they have institutional support.

Ouch.

No matter how Butterfly came across at school, it doesn't justify bullying.

Wise words indeed, Mrs O, couldn't agree with more. And also with @FlirtsWithRhinos 's post at the bottom of page 11.

Children thinking they're the opposite sex need a sensitive therapeutic intervention - not affirmation by unqualified teachers or interventions from self interested adults / lobby groups.
Schools are not venues for this social experiment on children. They need to enable children to grow and develop free from the influence of an age inappropriate ideology in a politically impartial environment.

By 'sensitive theraputic intervention' what do you mean?

I was educated in a non-affirming and extremely trans-hostile school environment in a culture that didn't generally believe any trans people regardless of age deserved compassion or support; where there were no legal provisions in place for trans people and where even talking about gender identity could be grounds for disciplinary action.

Strangely none of those things made me - or any other of my rare other peers who managed to actually find their way to child psychiatric services and endure a policy of Watchful Waiting - any less trans, but they did make us extremely frustrated and wary of misinformation and bullshit from people who do not understand what it is like to be a trans child.

The therapeutic support that trans kids need is to explore why they feel this way. Why the reality of their body causes them such distress. I’m sure most people would agree that feeling able to accept the body you have is a better outcome than a life of medical procedures and hormones, all of which have side effects. That’s not to say that no one will ultimately benefit from a ‘transition’ but it’s not an easy path and not one that should be ‘celebrated’ with a great deal of careful preparation. the data tells us that the huge increase must be from a range of reasons, or we’d be seeing lots of older women becoming trans.

The distress can arise from all sorts of things - discomfort at bodily changes with puberty, Autism, internalised homophobia, a homophobic family, interpreting same sex attraction as meaning they must be the opposite sex, societal or family pressure on gender non-conforming kids, abuse, online stuff, social contagion… all of these need to be explored sensitively before any further decisions are made.

Discomfort at bodily changes with puberty is definitely a component of gender incongruence. That's...well, that's kind of the point?

If you believe people are transitioning because of homophobia then how do you account for the strong representation of bisexuals amongst the trans population? It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

The data tells us that more young people are attending clinics than used to in the 90's and 00's under an oppressive social environment which promised a lifetime of inescapable shame and fear, and where information about trans people and available treatments was actively suppressed.

I agree we need to be careful, but the only way to do that is to actually engage with the subject rather than trying to stuff the genie back in the bottle and revert to a state where hardly anyone gets any treatment at all because they don't even know it exists, or where the provisions themselves are either stretched to breaking point or simply no longer exist at all.

None of this changes the need for children who do transition to be able to live in privacy, dignity and safety.

With respect Butterfly - this isn't about you and your experiences, difficult as they sound. All of us have personal experiences that impact on our beliefs and behaviour.
Those with qualifications in education, safeguarding, pastoral care, school improvement /curriculum & child mental health in schools should be influencing schools. My personal experiences as a lesbian or as a lesbian teacher are part of me - but it's the professional learning / qualifications that matter when working in and with schools. All children are entitled to professional, educated support. Not well-meaning interventions from groups with a personal / political starting point.

I will keep repeating - children are being subjected to a social experiment in being told that they can change sex. Schools are not the places for this to be carried out, no matter how much individuals wish otherwise.

I agree we need to be careful, but the only way to do that is to actually engage with the subject

Well, I agree with that, Butterfly. I'd say, though, that it means discussing it accurately. You were a male child negotiating a regime that rejected your natural personality, and amongst peers who bullied you for it. That doesn't give you much if any insight into the trials of growing up female.

And as for 'bullshit from people who do not understand what it is like to be a trans child' -- again, you do not understand what it's like to be a female child.

Butterfly - there are also huge variations in the different reasons for girls and boys thinking they are or should be the opposite sex.
On hand you say that the huge increase in ‘trans’ children is because in the 90s and 00s ‘under an oppressive social environment which promised a lifetime of inescapable shame and fear, and where information about trans people and available treatments was actively suppressed’ but you also say that it isn’t safe now and so we must keep it secret. Which is it? And if you do think the huge numbers of children is because it’s now deemed ok by society where are all the adult women transitioning? And I don’t mean a few, I mean a 4000% increase like with kids - in fact it should be way more than that, generations of older women should be freely able to transition now. But it is nearly always men that decide to ‘transition’ as older people. Why is that do you think?

If you believe people are transitioning because of homophobia then how do you account for the strong representation of bisexuals amongst the trans population? It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bisexuals". I understand "bisexuals" as being people who are sexually attracted to both men and women, but reading your post it looks as though you might mean what I might think of as "non-binary" (people who regard themselves as being neither male nor female, or as both male and female). I honestly find the language around all of the "trans" debate very confusing - especially as it seems to change on an almost daily basis.

If we keep teaching children that their trans peers are aberrations to be shamed, decried and hounded out of public life then of course they'll keep acting like this.

Im going to address this as it’s, yet again, shamelessly misinterpreting the position of most posters and how schools are dealing with trans pupils in a hyperbolic way designed to apply the emotional thumbscrews.

Schools are NOT treating trans children as “abominations” or trying to “hound them out of public life” - schools are doing their best with confusing information and pressure from parents, the eir own staff and organisations with an agenda. The result is quite often schools get it wrong.

But schools SHOULD be looking after ALL children. That is literally in all
our job descriptions and contracts. It’s not about prioritising some children at the expense of others, it’s about balancing need.

TRAd and charities like Stonewall and Mermaids- who schools turn to for advice- are saying secrets must be kept, truth must be denied, reality must be ignored.

Why are we all not trying to find a way where children accept differences, that a boy may present as a girl and may want to be a girl. Start from there and treat EVERYONE with kindness, respect and compromise if needed. If a trans girl can’t change with the boys then separate space. Zero tolerance of all bullying. Acceptance that sex can’t be changed but for some presenting in a certain way is more appropriate for them.

I can’t say things would be better had we gone down this path but I know lying to everyone won’t result in a Hallmark movie when nature does its thing and outs these kids. I know there’s less chance of living with a secret if we support openness and there’s true inclusion if girls are allowed to be treated as humans not resources.

Acceptance that sex can’t be changed but for some presenting in a certain way is more appropriate for them.

This.

Break the gender stereotypes - don't keep enforcing them. Reassure children that what they are is fine. You are an effeminate boy/ butch girl - nothing wrong with that - you are perfect just as you are, can wear what you want/ present how you wish - and that is FINE.

But sex - your chromosomally-determined, biological, identifiable SEX - that doesn't change. You can take hormones, have surgery, torture and manipulate your body however you want - but you DO NOT CHANGE SEX.

Accept yourself as the sex you are, and work with it to present as a way you feel comfortable. For some this may require more than just looking like a stereotype of the opposite sex - some may feel that they do need surgery etc, and that's fine, as long as everyone is aware realise that it is all appearance, and not reality.

If you believe people are transitioning because of homophobia then how do you account for the strong representation of bisexuals amongst the trans population? It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

There are multiple often very different pathways to transition, including homophobia and also others. Sasha and Stella on "Gender A Wider Lens" describe a different pathway that's common for the burgeoning number of teen girls - "From bi to pan to trans". It's even an episode title and you can find the whole thing on YouTube.

You might also look at the three-way relationship between autism, transgender, and not having a strong sexuality or sexual orientation as described by Az Hakeem.

(You raised the question so I suppose you're interested in the answers)

@ButterflyHatched: "Discomfort at bodily changes with puberty is definitely a component of gender incongruence. That's...well, that's kind of the point?"

OK. But what exactly is this 'gender incongruence'?

To me it looks nothing more than a kind of unhappiness (albeit often extreme) at one's sex.

I have tried, but failed, to make sense of the notion of 'gender' as something one can have or be that allows it to be congruent or incongruent with aspects of oneself (as a particular sex or anything else). The notion of gender - or gender identity - as something, not coterminous with sex, that one can have, or be, rather than as just a set of (often harmful) stereotypes ... such a notion is one I have yet to see or hear coherently explained.

This being so, of course I believe the young person in question is making a mistake, one he needs help in coming to terms with, and hopefully overcoming. A fortiori I believe it simply wrong to have others (children as well as adults) collude in the maintenance of the mistake this child is making: bad for the child as well as others involved.

Of course this belief entails that you, too, Butterfly, have made/make a similar mistake with respect to yourself. (Nevertheless you still exist as a trans person: it just seems to me you are mistaken in thoughts about what this amounts to and so to your description of yourself - particularly with regard to what sex you are.) However ...

... Perhaps it's me that's wrong here. If you think I am, perhaps you can help me see where I'm going wrong by explaining what 'gender incongruence' means. What is gender incongruence in a boy, other than unhappiness that he is a boy? What is gender incongruence in a girl other than unhappiness that she is a girl?

People make mistakes about themselves all the time. That you did so, @ButterflyHatched, should not be seen as a reason to collude in another's similar sad error. Tough, I know. But there it is.