Non Binary Teachers

[WandaWomblesaurus]

My daughter (older teen) has had a total of three non binary teachers across primary and high school.
All were biologically female.
All went by Mx.

I asked her about her observations of them and anything she noticed in common with them as I was curious about how they have affected her education over the years.

"They all try too hard to connect with their students in an inappropriately informal way, talking a lot about personal life and relationships. A lot of talk about gender as would be expected. Sharing stuff about their own personal lives and relationships to the class and asking us about our relationships."

"They hijack the subjects they are teaching putting gender in. So for example we had a relief teacher in an English class giving us a paper about girls saying they are boys and having mastectomies and we were asked to rewrite it in our own words. I wrote on the paper I didn't agree with it."

"All of them have trans flags, stickers, posters saying TRANS IS BEAUTIFUL. Advertising it as a lifestyle choice basically."

"They try and be charismatic by putting on the nb front of 'coolness' and progressiveness but actually they are all quite awkward and square."

"Clothing wise they still all majorly present as women. They might have a short haircut but they wear dresses and makeup and I don't see how they even look androgynous or are breaking any stereotypes."

"A lot of time in classes is spent trying to imprint their opinions on us and they go off topic. They only try and relate to the girls. They don't have the skills to relate to the boys. A couple of the girls in my classes talk openly about having crushes on these teachers."

"The MX is a big thing, they get very snippy if they aren't MX'd, even by kids who are struggling to understand basic things. The pronouns are always seen as more important than the student."

Curious stuff isn't it?
I can't imagine these teachers having power in schools for much longer.

maybe I don’t feel like a girl either

The curriculum dictates, as you should well know if you are a teacher, that gender stereotypes should be broken and challenged so that no one is able to properly define what "feeling like a girl" is, unless directly linked to their biological sex.

Which is why the open dsd discussions are so awful for teens with dsds as they often learn that they're infertile during their teen years and all their dreams of being a mother can be shattered. Claire Graham who has a dsd, and was a teacher too, talks about this on her public Facebook page in a post from a couple of years ago. It's still near the top of the page as she left Facebook.

If adults can work out how to ensure students are not impacted at all then fine

And by that I mean if a student says Sir to a male there should be zero embarrassment- it’s a fact based pronoun

So go with taking whatever out that is leading to that outcome.

The embarrassment is coming from the idea they have said something ‘wrong’. It’s not incorrect so whoever indicated it was wrong needs to modify behaviour.

You are just proving my point. What does it matter what that person’s individual beliefs about gender are?

As long as they teach your child the curriculum, their personal life doesn’t matter to you.

Have you not thought that there may well be children in the class with parents or siblings who identify as non binary?

But they're not in this OP.

And there's been a number of other threads and comments here and there about similar behaviour.

And the belief is impacting the children who are being asked to participate in the adult's idea about themselves.

I think we’re a long way from the OP now. As many people have said, over-sharing your personal life, or trying to indoctrinate students with your own beliefs is not ok, it’s against the teaching standards, and should be reported. Interestingly, the OP has not returned to share whether she actually did report these teachers and what the school’s response was.

But just because some people have said that they have come across some NB teachers who have done this, it does not mean that all NB teachers would act that way. Many people on the thread have shared examples of inappropriate male teachers- I don’t hear anyone saying “ban men from teaching!”

I don’t think it’s a big deal if a NB or trans teacher asks students to call them “Mx” or “teacher” or whatever their preferred title is. I think there are many ways of doing it without making it a big deal. It doesn’t follow that they are going to then “preach” about it to their students.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, and trans/non binary are among the many things taught on the PSHE curriculum. So your children are going to hear about it in school regardless.

A teacher is in loco parentis but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to proactively have conversations with a child about any matter they wish. For example, it would be inappropriate for a teacher to speak with a child about their religion or metaphysical worldview and suggest, either explicitly or implicitly, that the child take that worldview on too. It would also be inappropriate for a teacher to try to iniaite a conversation with a child about genital anatomy.

It would also be inappropriate for a teacher to try to iniaite a conversation with a child about genital anatomy.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise?!

Completely agree with all of that.

In my experience all the activist type teachers are secondary teachers. Every single primary teacher I know, and I know a lot, are 100% clear on biology. Most of them are great at challenging stereotypes.

It seems to be the ones who work with teens who go in for the Stonewall stuff.

The other thing to consider is how close to a religion is 'genderism'? Is it more like a niche belief like astrology? I'm not a teacher and I'm not aware what the rules are on teachers disseminating beliefs that aren't actually religious. Philosophical views, abstract theory, political views. Using 'Mx' is manifesting those views, which are probably I would say more political than religious.

You said: "Better that they have the issues [trans] explained to them by a trusted adult,"...

The discussion then moved on to age appropriate ways in which the trans belief might be explained to children. I said that young children would not be able to grasp the theoretical phrasing offered by @ArabellaScott and would probably revert to body-based questions since children under the age of around 9 typically understand girl vs boy by outward genitalia (below around age 5, it's been shown by studies to be hair length, then it changes to outward genitalia).

This is why the trans belief is not an appropriate conversation to have with children, because with young children, it would risk devolving very quickly into areas which are inappropriate for a teacher to discuss with a child.

We then discussed the difference between "trusted adult", which in primary teaching usually means parent/guardian, and "in loco parentis". A teacher in loco should not be having conversations with a child about outward genitalia (apart from in very specific proscribed circumstances, of which the trans belief is not one).

I think you’ve made a very big leap there!

My child has a NB teacher. I explained to DC that this was a belief system that some people hold where they think most people want to follow restrictive sex stereotypes like hairstyle, interests and clothing and that they are special because they don’t. We talked about how silly this is and that girls can like football, computing and have short hair and boys can like long hair and home economics and it is all just fashion anyway that changes with time as does our own tastes. We then agreed DC should call the teacher politely by the name she chose in class and otherwise treat her like any other teacher and that it was ok to use she/her when referring to her because, as DC Speech and Language Therapist taught, pronouns refer to sex and it is discriminatory to place a demand on a child with speech, language and communication needs to change their use of the basic structures of language to fit your belief. We also agreed she is a woman, it is ok to recognise that but that as she doesn’t want to be reminded of it due to her belief he doesn’t need to say anything about it in class.

Stop being so disingenuous. No one is saying children won't come across trans people in 'real life', but they are saying the issue is seeing a male person and indoctrinating the child into pretending the person isn't male.

But just because some people have said that they have come across some NB teachers who have done this, it does not mean that all NB teachers would act that way. Many people on the thread have shared examples of inappropriate male teachers- I don’t hear anyone saying “ban men from teaching!”

I don’t think it’s a big deal if a NB or trans teacher asks students to call them “Mx” or “teacher” or whatever their preferred title is. I think there are many ways of doing it without making it a big deal. It doesn’t follow that they are going to then “preach” about it to their students.

FWIW, I agree with this.

But there's so little definition of what NB is, and it seems to mean different things to different people. And no clear guidance (yet) about how to discuss these things. Gender identity is not to be referred to in councils etc now. It is not a protected characteristic nor a recognised belief. It is likely to be changed in school curriculum docs.

I personally don't think anyone who is NB sees it as a belief. I personally think they think they're part of the pride rainbow. It's also become so normalised for some younger people who are working now that they wouldn't see the harms or conflicts or confusion that could arise.

There are so very many questions that can lead to inappropriate conversations and teaching, some probably very naive thanks to stonewall and no trans guidelines, that I think it's absolutely right to be having these conversations as has been had on this thread.

Safeguarding is not about dismissing concerns because of not wanting to stereotype or tar everyone with the same brush. That's what held back action over the grooming gangs.

It's about being honest and forensic and clear. No one is clear what Nb is. What it means. How they'll describe themselves. What it will lead to. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/04/bbc-criticised-non-binary-casualty-character-top-surgery/

The other thing to consider is how close to a religion is 'genderism'? Is it more like a niche belief like astrology?

I don't know. "Religion" is probably the wrong word. But it's definitely a metaphysical belief, unless science (ie the empirical observation based methodology we use in the West) one day demonstrates otherwise. So it shouldn't be presented to children as fact.

My area of knowledge is pre-adolescents, I haven't studied adolescent psychology for years and know very little about current thinking. But young children are generally very literal. I don't know how you could present trans and non-binary ideas to them without either completely upending the very building blocks of their observed worldview about boys vs girls, or telling them "You must comply with this speech pattern but you're not allowed to understand why".

Both methods are, at best, not in line with current pedagogical best practice, and at worst are safeguarding issues.

I suppose you could successfully implant a literal belief in trans if you got to a child early, before they started observing differences between boys and girls. But you'd have to get to them in the pre-conceptual age, ie before the age of about 4/5. I'd suggest that that in itself is a safeguarding issue.

Many actresses are declaring themselves as NB and getting mastectomies.

people.com/yellowjackets-star-liv-hewson-more-alive-after-top-surgery-7554623

I actually talk about myself a lot in lessons, but that's because I'm an MFL teacher. Most of our topics involve talking about yourself, your life, your family, your opinions, and we are constantly modelling examples of sentences on those topics.

As a result, pupils usually know loads about their MFL teachers. However... I never ever tell my students about my religious, moral or political beliefs, or about details of my relationships or how I feel about personal things. The point about gender identity is that it is a belief. It is not appropriate to state or imply tp pupils in a school that someone can be male if they were born female or vice versa, because that is a controversial belief, not supported by anything factual.

(Edited to add 'to pupils in a school')

But young children are generally very literal.

As are older children and even some adults with autism.

Some with dyslexia can be very literal too.

Yes. This is why I suggested earlier that requiring that people use incorrect pronouns is not only potentially damaging to the neurological development of young children, but is also discriminatory towards people with ASD, cognitive disabilities, and people whose first language is not English.

Off topic. But it was a revelation to my DD that in French lessons, and her French exam, she could make up facts about her family, pets, interests etc - often dependent on the vocab that came to mind. She didn’t need to tell the truth.

Gender ideology abandons plain English and language is inaccessible and discriminatory

It’s why organisations who work with people in those categories are meant to use plain English

AllProperTeaIsTheft · Today 11:34

I actually talk about myself a lot in lessons, but that's because I'm an MFL teacher.

I had to google that!

Off topic. But it was a revelation to my DD that in French lessons, and her French exam, she could make up facts about her family, pets, interests etc - often dependent on the vocab that came to mind. She didn’t need to tell the truth.

Yes! I tell my students this from Y7. They do have to be reminded not to accidentally contradict themselves if they make lots of stuff up though! It's fine in the GCSE spesking exam to go for the easier option by saying your sister is 3 instead of 23, but don't then tell me she works in a bank.

I had to google that!

Sorry - I sometimes forget that's not always regarded as a common abbreviation outside educational circles!

Non binary cannot exist as a category. Its either a third category which makes it " non trinary" or it puts you into 2 categories, binary amd non binary which makes you binary again. There fir any mention of ot whatsoever is effectively gas lighting.

Anything that allows people to obscure the sex of a person is a safeguarding issue. It put children in charge if their own safguarding which should not be happening in schools. Allowing or teaching children its ok to use words in the incorrect context changes the whole meaning of the sentence and can hide whats going on.

Gender needs to stay out of schools. Teachers and kids have all the time after school be or do what ever they want. Teachers should not be using children many if whom will be vulnerable to validate their identity. Thata not what kids are there for. Amd it's not their fault that the whole thing doesn't work without the forced participation of non consenting members if the public.

I find the discussion about how easy it is to get kids amd teens to go along with this disturbing. I mean uts literally owning up to < insert word we can't say, rhymes with broom/doom/zoom here> them. Thats not something you should be proud to say.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · Today 12:17

Sorry - I sometimes forget that's not always regarded as a common abbreviation outside educational circles!

Amusingly, my ten year old daughter's French teacher is part of our social circle!

Another issue is how a teacher who is NB would explain being non binary compared to someone who doesn't subscribe to the belief of gender identity.

It's going to be extremely hard to communicate in age appropriate language that doesn't lead to discussions of bodies and sex. And rely on the structure of gender stereotypes.

And the simplest terms would likely lead pupils to think, oh that's me. As many children don't subscribe to fixed gender stereotypes. Which, as per Cass, isn't a "neutral act."

We are free to believe in god/s or not. And then change our minds. We are free as adults to work out our sexuality, changing our minds as we go. Neither leads to surgical or medical interventions.

It's an entirely different type of belief with an entirely different end point for some who subscribe to it.

The only other type of belief that does the same is one that leads to fgm.

Because of this, any teacher with indications of being NB does need this scrutiny as it is so very varied.