Confused on the concept of non binary

[ireallycantthinkofaname]

Please be nice, i am not the sharpest knife in the box under normal circumstances and I'm running on about 6 hrs sleep over the past week at the minute.....

But something I've been trying and failing to understand re. the concept of 'non binary' in the 'gender movement' (or whatever it is/ought to be called) is that on the one hand, people who subscribe to that philosophy are saying they reject the traditional idea of explicit male/femaleness (because if "trans women are women" then they have swapped for instance). But then if you have 'non binary' individuals isn't that pretty much saying oh yes, actually there is a binary - and some people don't subscribe to it?

I do acknowledge sex =/= gender but not all NB people are intersex/have DSD

<<thoroughly discombobulated>>

“Certain degree” covers that.

The way you’re talking is like a religious person who can’t understand that there’s such a thing as atheism.

No, that's the way you're talking

I said that was imposing. Unless you are going to prison, you’re not being imposed on.

So do you think nonbinary is more prevalent now because of sexist culture?

In theoretical and legal terms sex equality in British society has improved since I was growing up. But in many day-to-day matters that are more directly visible, it has got worse.

I grew up with children frequently wearing each other's hand-me-down clothes and playing with hand-me-down toys regardless of sex. Girls had short hair, wore trousers, climbed trees. Boys with long hair and flowery shirts were unremarkable. Toys were orange or green or yellow or any colour - not pink and blue. Lego came in 1 type - no simplified, pastel Lego Friends for girls. No social media pushing stereotypes or instagram filters creating unrealistic visual expectations (other media such as print and TV adverts did both to an extent, but were nowhere near as pervasive or personal.)

Second wave feminists rejected gender by attempting to smash the boxes and set everyone free; not by trying to opt out on an individual basis while walling everyone else firmly in.

So yes - in many ways sexism has got worse, and that is likely to be part of the driver for "gender" becoming the current framing concept of choice. (And cultures are simultaneously becoming increasingly transnational, making differences - and therefore culture-bound syndomes - harder to spot.)

“Certain degree” covers that.

Well yes, if it's zero.

The naming of the thing makes it no more a thing than it already is.

And that's the crux of the issue right there.

Also, theres a lot of authoritarian gatekeeping of non-binary going on on this thread.
Non binary is as infinitely fluctuating & nuanced as personalities are.

Which is entirely coincidental.

I don’t even believe in gender other than as a repressive tool of the patriarchy. Is that GNC enough do we think?

Unless you are going to prison, you’re not being imposed on.

Yes you are. Do you know what freedom of speech is? Do you know what a chilling effect is?

I don’t even believe in gender other than as a repressive tool of the patriarchy. Is that GNC enough do we think?

That's going to flummox chat GPT.

The multi billion pound beauty industry would indicate that is likely lip service for most. The same with all the photos, interviews and footage of most leading feminists.

Show me a woman who describes herself as NB who is stereotypically “girly girl” then. And I mean an actual woman. Not Alok or someone similar.

God only knows - it’s so fucked up. And the level of naval-gazing invoked is off the scale…

I do happen to know what freedom of speech is. It isn’t speech without consequence of public opinion, it is speech without government censorship or prosecution (going to prison).

To be fair I've come across these women. I think they're basically just trolling everyone for attention.

Also there are cases of people identifying as NB feeling like they need hormones to ‘balance themselves out’).

That’s true. It’s similar to how some people can feel they need antidepressants, because they’ve been diagnosed with depression, and it can be the diagnosis which creates their sense of need, etc. It’s a general issue with medicalisation of many things. In theory better education would help address those issues, but that process of thinking seems to be quite common.

That last was in response to @NotBadConsidering

Non binary says I am not binary - I am not one of the two options, the two sexes. Whatever ‘nuance’ there is or isn’t (which really just seems to boil down to personal traits and characteristics - which everyone has) it is a claim not be be really male or really female. And so what does that mean to the person saying they are NB? It means they don’t feel they match up to what society says about men and women. It always comes back to stereotypes. And as such, props up toxic thinking.

OK - so please describe for me what a gender non-conforming female looks like.

Peas is bringing out the “essence” again.

It doesn’t matter if a female human believers herself to be female or not. She is. There is no essence.

Yes, exactly.

I don’t need to. Just look up femme nonbinary woman and you will find many thousands.

Plenty of lesbians reject make-up and dress for comfort. Like most men.

You already know this.

Exactly. It’s just makes it even more meaningless. “I don’t feel comfortable in either gender norm and how I dress or behave is no reflection on that.”

If someone who claims to be NB says this wearing jeans, a barbie dress or whatever it’s meaningless.

Hmmm I love this.

I was always someone who was anti-labels in my youth but I also wasn't exposed to groups that I would have identified with as an adoptee.

I was raised around white people who were all straight.

I think we naturally gravitate towards people who share similar experiences in the world.

I feel more comfortable around queer people and poc. This is all very general of course.

We tend to divide ourselves up by identities which isn't necessarily ideal, but I would say those divisions happened by those who have more power.

Slavery in the USA created a very big divide that continues. Homosexuality being illegal still in many parts of the world is very othering.

The majority of women on here appear to be straight white women. Naturally there is a common connection which is why this site is so popular.

I'm not sure what or how nonbinary feels but I can't form a good argument against someone's feelings and requiring a change in pronouns doesn't seem a big ask.

Words have evolved so much over time. Presumably most women on here wouldn't call someone the N word, and that happened over time.

I'm not a fan of compelled speech and disagree with it as a law, but for my own views I have no issue calling someone They. I don't have to understand it in order to respect the person.