Non binary Teacher year 4

[1982mommaof4]

Okay not sure if it's me being sensitive...
My daughter is in year 4 juniors and she has a new teacher who identifies as Non binary and has made the class aware of this. She likes this teacher which is great. However, my DD now has questions that to be honest I don't want to answer.
One being do they( daughters words)have what I have or my brother has because they look like a girl but aren't.

Does that mean that some girls aren't girls...

How would you answer these questions, I'm trying to be sensitive and not offensive but I'm finding difficult to not be brutally honest in what I think.

@LottieandLisa

We were looking for "astonishingly high". The CNN article itself shows the problem:

Denmark, population level study:

Suicides = 0.3% of population over 41 years
Suicide attempts = 2.4% of population over 41 years.

High, but "astonishingly high"?

The figures usually cited for the "astonishingly high" also appear in that article:

Suicide attempts = 40% of US survey
Suicidal ideation = 82% of US survey

But that 40% is clearly implausible.

If we're rowing back to "6 or 7 times higher than the general population", we're getting at least into the realms of reality now, and we're abandoning the "astonishing".

A sex breakdown on the population study would be useful - male suicide stats are significantly higher than female (by a factor of 3 or 4 in the West, I gather), so if males were overrepresented in the "trans" group (as I'm pretty sure they were from 1980-2021), then that group would should be expected to have higher rates than the general population just by having more males.

Agree with you. Plus there’s no way the onus and damage should be moved to children due to adults’ risk of suicide.

Sex matters

You have a visceral reaction to a made up scenario? What transmen do you know who would respond like that to a child needing her with her period?

As a Catholic visiting Protestant relatives in a very Orange town I always got asked if I supported Rangers or Celtic, as a confused 8, 9,10 year old I would try to explain I didn't like football which generally annoyed kids in the park. My cousins despaired of me as they tried to explain I supported Celtic but had to say I supported Rangers which just confused me more than ever.

The joys of being the product of a mixed marriage.

@Josette77 be a dear and read the full thread.

OP, I would like to clarify with the school that no pupil will be compelled to use the preferred pronouns. Families may hold protected religious or other beliefs that conflict with this teacher's preference, these are legitimate views that must be respected.

Non binary identity exists and pretending otherwise seems irresponsible and gaslighty to me. It is an identity not a sex.

There are people who believe that they have a non-binary identity. This does not mean that a non-binary identity exists.

Just as there are people who believe in God but this does not mean that God exists.

The conversation with a 7-8 year old child about a difference in beliefs relating to sex/gender will undoubtedly be very different from the conversation between the OP and the school leadership. A 7-8 year old needs a clear explanation about the two sexes (factual) as a foundation for their understanding about the immutable differences between boys and girls. The key thing here is that the teacher and the school should not muddy the waters in the children's understanding about the sexes when explaining the teacher's belief in gender identity. Not an easy task but a crucially important one.

We've all got non binary identities ffs.

Or we are all incredibly sexist and gender conforming.

“A 7-8 year old needs a clear explanation about the two sexes (factual) as a foundation for their understanding about the immutable differences between boys and girls.”

“Immutable sex differences” (essentialist beliefs about sex) are never going to be taught in schools, beyond that it is something which some people believe. It’s the same thing as teaching that people have pink and blue brains. They are both beliefs, rather than scientific reality.

Haven't RTFT.

If this teacher proclaimed themselves to be the messiah, and required children to refer to them as such, would that be ok with the HT, governors and parents?

Genuine question.

Immutable sex differences are very much taught in schools, as they should be. They aren't beliefs about the two sexes, they are facts about the two sexea. E.g. I taught a lesson on puberty last week which taught the different things that happen to girls' and boys' body during puberty. If the lesson had just mixed them up together with no reference to the sex differences the kids would have come out very confused.

It's my understanding that people who identify as trans have a higher rate of suicide/ideation than the general public, but in line with LGB people, and other vulnerable people. Not 'astonishingly' high.

It's also my understanding that this is largely due to other co-morbidities.

Plus, medical transition seems to make it worse.

Not really.

But if we're using 'pointless' as criteria, I was pointing out the pointlessness of you using the word straight in regards to stonewall.

They apply it to gay people, lesbians, heterosexuals, the lot.

It's meaningless.

er no. Children absolutely need to be taught that biological sex is real and some times it very much matters. For example when you’re a biological woman it very much matters you have a smear test and if you’re a biological man you very much need a prostate exam

a belief - ffs!

Peasandsweetcorns said:
'“Immutable sex differences” (essentialist beliefs about sex) are never going to be taught in schools, beyond that it is something which some people believe. It’s the same thing as teaching that people have pink and blue brains. They are both beliefs, rather than scientific reality.'

So, you are suggesting that the fact that no individual mammal has switched from producing small gametes (sperm) to producing large gametes (eggs) or vice versa is not based in scientific reality?

Immutable sex differences” (essentialist beliefs about sex) are never going to be taught in schools, beyond that it is something which some people believe. It’s the same thing as teaching that people have pink and blue brains. They are both beliefs, rather than scientific reality.

This is nonsense. There are immutable sex differences between the two sexes, and there are people of both sexes with developmental disorders. That is a matter for the science teacher in biology class.

Find a peer reviewed biology paper that states that human sex is a spectrum @Peasandsweetcorns

Immutable sex differences” (essentialist beliefs about sex) are never going to be taught in schools, beyond that it is something which some people believe.

I'm a send primary teacher and we have always taught this. I've been teaching over 20 years, including mainstream.

To think that your sex is determinative of who you are or what you can be is essentialist.

I also grew up around farming communities; try rocking up there and telling them all this BS.

You might get the odd mixed up chicken, but we are not chickens. That's dinosaur heritage.

Note that it's still binary!

Shall we start on fungi now?

Spoiler; we ain't fungi either

You are describing teaching about sex differences (appropriate obviously), not teaching about “immutable” sex differences.

Beliefs in “immutable sex differences” aren’t just a belief that there are sex differences. They are beliefs that all female people share an essential female essence, and all male people share an essential male essence, and that people are male or female “really” (or not) based on whether they have the supposed essences. A belief in immutability of those essences is an aspect of an essentialist belief (look up essentialism if you want to). Someone who doesn’t believe in male and female essences isn’t going to believe there are any essences to be immutable. That doesn’t mean they believe there aren’t sex differences.

It isn't "biological essentialism" to teach children facts about their bodies. Just as MsGoodenough says above in relation to girls' and boys' puberty.

It would be biological essentialism if the teaching then went on to say that these sexed differences determined how someone should behave in society e.g. who they should have a relationship with, what job they should have etc. Obviously nothing like that should be taught in schools.

But no school should be teaching a child that they can decide whether they are a boy or a girl. If they did this, they would be teaching a belief (in gender identity) as if it were a truth. I would be particularly concerned, as mentioned by a PP above, that a year 4 teacher who has a non-binary gender identity would be able to teach biological facts about girls and boys without bringing their own belief in to the lessons.

They're year 4. They're starting to see puberty changes in some of their classmates, and will all see it in the next few years. They need to learn that if you're a girl, at some point in the next few years you should expect to grow breasts and get periods. And male equivalent. Not confustication about being girls and being boys being a state of mind and some people being neither and "people who menstruate" or "people with uteruses" getting periods which is liable to worry and confuse children heading into puberty.

Kids with diagnosed DSDs will already have been told by their doctors or parents what to expect. Kids with undiagnosed DSDs still need to know what is normal for their sex so that they know when they need to talk to their parents or ultimately go to a doctor for more investigation.

ime pants and vests aren’t fine at that age.

increasingly young girls are being made to wear “modesty shorts” under their school dresses and skirts. On the off chance they do a handstand in the playground or sit cross legged and someone (male) gets a glimpse of their pants.

so I can’t imagine that it’s fine for mixed sex classrooms stripping off to completely display said pants.

interestingly there’s no question over who are boys and who are girls in the above scenario. Girls are the ones with pants, boys are the one’s who need protecting from seeing girl’s pants.

That academic queer theory is completely incompatible with the curriculum around challenging sexist stereotypes.

Children's cognitive verbal reasoning is not as advanced as an adult (who is technically based on brain development anyone over 25).

I bet half the adults on mn this thread can't fathom what a belief in a male or female essence is.