Non binary Teacher year 4

[1982mommaof4]

Okay not sure if it's me being sensitive...
My daughter is in year 4 juniors and she has a new teacher who identifies as Non binary and has made the class aware of this. She likes this teacher which is great. However, my DD now has questions that to be honest I don't want to answer.
One being do they( daughters words)have what I have or my brother has because they look like a girl but aren't.

Does that mean that some girls aren't girls...

How would you answer these questions, I'm trying to be sensitive and not offensive but I'm finding difficult to not be brutally honest in what I think.

I didn’t ask not care for your opinion on what you consider a trans person. Just pointing out it was totally pointless to link that.

"Also if you have the biology textbook you can explain that sometimes gender dysphoric people get drs to help them change how their body looks on the outside but that it doesn’t change how it works on the inside. So even if a man becomes a transwoman he can’t make eggs and can’t get pregnant with a baby and if a woman becomes a transman she will never make sperm and can’t become a father. Or a transman can grow a beard with drugs but it won’t make them grow taller."

The problem is that some will view this as hate speech and/or unkind. Suggestions that we should support people to become more resilient to differing views and belief is viewed by some as 'victim blaming'.

Of course, if we want people to enjoy a good quality of life, teaching them to be tolerant to the views and values of others is a blindingly obvious. We have systems in place for determining which views are worthy of respect in a democratic society, and systems in place to challenge these systems if we don't agree with them.

Those who cultivate and reinforce fragility by trying to police what others say are not helping marginalised groups, despite their claims/beliefs that this is 'being kind'. They cultivate fear that real harm comes from someone not viewing them in the way they wish. In reality, upset feelings can come from this but they need not overwhelm people, we can learn to regulate our feelings and behaviour.

I am always tempted to ask whether the non-binary person is a non-binary man or a non-binary woman.

I’m kind of serious. The whole concept just falls apart the minute you look at it, and yet it’s crept into institutions, charities, government, the NHS…and what do you do with it, practically speaking? I think there are a lot more court cases to come.

@1982mommaof4

I am not sure if this has been mentioned, but might be worth having a thing about.

You said earlier that you wanted to find out of there was going to be an assembly about the teacher/non binary.

You could ask the school how they intend to define non binary, since there isn't any one excepted definition, and no definition in law.

Likewise, schools have a STATUTORY duty to not teach or reinforce harmful stereotypes ?(including sex/gender based stereotypes). Another statutory duty is that staff must not suggest that a student might be a different gender, based on the student preferring typically opposite-gender things.

If staff cannot define non binary without reference to, and giving weight to, harmful gender based stereotypes, then it should not be discussed in school.

I will find the relevant link shortly, but will lose this typing if I leave the page now!

@HollyKnight

Stop trying to shame the women of Mumsnet by trying to imply we have some obsession with “checking genitals”.

You won’t shame us because we know (just as you do) that you don’t need to check most people’s genitals to know what sex they are. You can stop pretending you believe that. You know perfectly well it’s nonsense.

The frequency of your repeating it could lead someone to conclude that it’s actually you who has the obsession with genitals. You also suggest teachers in changing rooms must be “pervs” and introduced a scenario to back that up, introducing sexual connotations into a suggested situation where there wasn’t one.

And to the person who is on this thread whose child is friends with one of the 525 known true hermaphrodites that have been documented (out of the 8 billion people alive) just wow! How fortunate we are to have someone on the thread who has direct experience of such an incredibly rare condition. If I didn’t know better, I’d suspect that someone with virtually no knowledge of DSDs had just made something up.

@Brainworm
I see what you’re saying, but OPs primary concern here is that her 9year can make sense of the situation and also that she doesn’t start unnecessarily thinking there’s something wrong with her own body because that just leads to a whole lot of angst.
Kids are not born knowing everyone we have picked up in 20,30,40,50 years of life. We often muddle up sex and gender hugely when they are small because we don’t want to talk about sex (as in sex diffences but also reproduction/sexual behavior). And we’ve been trying to push back against gender stereotypes for several generations. These are not bad things - obviously kids should not be exposed to adult sexual behavior and we should insist that sex does not determine your choices in life.
But that means that we do at some point have to make it clear what the separation between sex, gender and gender identity actually is.
If OP’s kid repeats in class that her teacher is a biological woman who doesn’t like the gender stereotypes for women and has a nonbinary gender identity then I’d say that’s a pretty good summary of the situation and she shouldn’t get into any kind of trouble for being rude?

This, to be protected by law on gender reassignment they have to be changing or purporting to change the physiological or other characteristics of sex. In any event, having the PC of GR doesn’t mean other people are forced to kowtow to it, just that they are protected from unlawful discrimination and harassment because of it.

Regarding the teaching of sex, gender and gender identity, the Department for Education (DfE) issued the following guidance in September 2020 (my emphasis in bold):
“We are aware that topics involving gender and biological sex can be complex and sensitive matters to navigate.
You should not reinforce harmful stereotypes, for instance by suggesting that children might be a different gender based on their personality and interests or the clothes they prefer to wear.
Resources used in teaching about this topic must always be age-appropriate and evidence based. Materials which suggest that non-conformity to gender stereotypes should be seen as synonymous with having a different gender identity should not be used and you should not work with external agencies or organisations that produce such material.

I expect it's apocryphal, but there used to be tales of people going over to Northern Ireland and on being asked whether they were Protestant or Catholic and explaining they were Jewish/atheist etc being asked 'Yes, but a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?'

On a related note, in all the races that have opened up a non-binary category, the top prizes have all gone to people who appear to be non-binary males, not non-binary females. What are the odds?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum

Hope this is helpful.

If you look at other posts on this thread, the same person has a lot more friends and relatives with various NB and ‘trans’ status as well as DSDs. There’s a whole bingo card of unlikelihood going on there

Firstly, don’t be coy about telling your child that their teacher is either female or male with the corresponding body parts. They’re aged 9/10? aren’t they?

I distinctly remember being about 7 or 8 and coming back after the long summer holiday and cheerily saying ‘Hello Miss Smith’ and her looking me in the eye and saying ‘I’m not Miss Smith’ and me being confused and then saying ‘Sorry, ‘Mrs’ Smith (knowing that female teachers were either Miss or Mrs), and her still looking me dead in the eye saying ‘still wrong’. And she looked like she was really relishing my confusion and she left me sweating until she said ‘I got married over the holidays and I’m now Mrs White’. And I distinctly remember thinking, ‘how the fuck was I supposed to know that?!’ Followed closely by ‘You’re still Miss Smith to me - even though you’ve had to lose your real name and get given someone else’s - how come that happens?’ I went right off her!

I imagine my reaction would be similar if a female teacher came back after the holidays presenting as a ‘Mr’ - I’d still think they were the person they were before the holidays but were just insisting I call them something else - because they’re ‘grown-ups’ and can make us do things because we’re only children.

I mention this because it reminds me how important a teacher can be in your child’s life. You look at them as an important representative of ‘the grown ups’. I also don’t like the fact that male teachers are called ‘Sir’ which is a hierarchical label and female teachers are called ‘Miss’ whether they’re single or married which is just an indicator of whether a female is married or not - it infers that respect and accuracy doesn’t matter when applied to females but you definitely need to tug your forelock at any male in authority.

Funnily enough, at the age of 16 I started using ‘Ms’ and have never taken my partner’s surname.

I’d be telling my child that this person obviously doesn’t like having their sex drawn attention to (no need to get into reasons unless pressed) and maybe just call them ‘teacher’ when they need their attention or when they’re chatting amongst their peers ie. ‘Teacher said we should do it this way’ or, ‘Teacher, can I have some help?’ or Teacher’s been in that cupboard for a long time’

Hope your meeting goes well. Please report back.

It’s no more complicated than if they asked you about gay people. Answer questions honestly, in an age appropriate way. Get on with the rest of the day.

The teacher didn’t have to draw attention to it and yet they chose to do so. It sounds like they are abusing their position to push an agenda.

The suicide rate amongst trans people is astonishingly high and all that's required from us is acceptance and understanding and paying attention to our language when addressing them. I just don't understand why everyone gets so hot under the collar about this. It just requires compassion.

The suicide rate amongst trans people is not my problem. If they are so fragile that someone not validating them by using their chosen pronouns would lead them to suicide they should seek mental health support. Of course they have the right not to be harassed for their gender presentation but I’m afraid for me my “compassion” doesn’t extend to lying to myself just to validate their “identity”.

No, it wasn't. This is what I was replying to:

The teacher isn't saying they are trans, wanting to be non binary does not mean you are trans.

Stonewall, which has advised a great many government bodies, police forces, councils, universities, major companies and other charities, says in its glossary, thus presumably reflecting what it says in its advice and training sessions:

Trans
An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman, trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/list-lgbtq-terms

Stonewall are merely a campaign group. Their word isn’t law. A number of organisations are also moving away from being advised by them

And with good reason. Some of their own founders have dissociated themselves from Stonewall. A good many bodies who have naively relied on what they were advised in Stonewall training have come a cropper as a result.

But as they sell themselves as the top LGBTQ+ lobbying organisation in the UK, a lot of people will trust what they say on these matters.

Except that, as a PP says, it requires direct audience participation as well as the concept of gender identity directly impacting on aspects of safeguarding

The suicide rate amongst trans people is astonishingly high and all that's required from us is acceptance and understanding and paying attention to our language when addressing them. I just don't understand why everyone gets so hot under the collar about this. It just requires compassion.

So is this Nb person trans or not?

If they're so mentally ill that being misgendered in a school environment could risk suicidal feelings, it's not the career for them.

Though, the suicide stats are a myth.

Thank you. This very important debate is now so toxic and both sides are to blame for that. You can have your views and you have a right to express them but that doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t be treated with respect if they are non-binary or trans. If you follow any of the high profile people tweeting or discussing this topic including Maya and JKR they all say the same thing.
OP please do not believe the PP who said non-binary is not protected under the equality act. That is rubbish. There is case law since 2020 which says otherwise.

There is no case law, that would require a higher court than an employment tribunal. The person was clearly MTF which is protected under "gender reassignment".

It’s no more complicated than if they asked you about gay people. Answer questions honestly, in an age appropriate way. Get on with the rest of the day.

Yes it is. Lesbian and gay people are same-sex attracted and have been vilified for centuries for it. All those gay men and lesbians hounded to suicide: living furtive secret lives: living under the threat of state sanctioned imprisonment and execution — yet still seeking out same-sex relationships because that's who we are, not how we decide to identify.

Until 2004 lesbians and gay people were literally second class citizens: they were taxed differently because they couldn't marry, they weren't allowed to adopt and hotels and guesthouses and bars could refuse to serve them. They could be sacked for being gay. Many lived secret lives. Anyone who was just identifying as L or G for the kicks (the literal kicks in many cases) would have dropped the pretence and gone straight. But they didn't because they couldn't because they are same-sex attracted. It's a real thing, not an affectation.

None of this has ever applied to NB people. No one has ever been able to define what NG really means to me. NB can just stop being NB at any time because it doesn't actually mean anything. Stop equating it with homosexuality. Your homophobia is showing.

Assuming your DD is 7 or 8, I'd keep it light touch - some girls don't like doing girl things and some boys don't like doing boy things and that's okay. That's why your teacher is called ..... or does ....

She has testes and ovaries? Balls.

And as PPs have pointed out DSDs are conditions that can be identified by someone's physiology. Being NB doesn't have a definition and is a condition that only exists in someone's head. They aren't related.