What do you think should happen to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA)?

[TERFisTHEnewTREND]

Personally, I can't believe this act was ever passed! I know 2004 was a different time, but still!

I believe that the only way of moving past the gender madness in law is to revoke the GRA. "Gender" is about as useful as someone's favorite type of music, so it has no place on a legal document.

As for what should happen to those who already have a GRA... well, I think some of them are owed an apology by those who told them that this piece of paper would change their sex (which it doesn't).

What do others think?

In which case it would be clear that they were no longer interpreting the treaty the member states actually signed up to in any meaningful way but had gone completely rogue.

They would be effectively giving full permission to all ECHR members to stop recognising their authority over anything.

Errr no. By all means have a gender, any gender you like. Make one up if you want. But your sex is your sex. It is that simple. As a pp mentions, make a box for gender if some people would like one. But that doesnt and never will alter your sex.

I see some merit in just making the gra a comedy law. I'd prefer repealed, how is above my paygrade. I'm a cleaner not an MP or judge. They get paid a whole hell of a lot more than I do to figure this stuff out. In this instance they can earn their money.

If it's protection from discrimination, we already have laws for that.

You can make discrimination illegal all you like but that doesn’t change the ways people get treated in every day life at all. The quality of interactions, values, attitudes, pleasantries, offers of help, friendship etc.

If someone learns that a person is a different sex to what they first thought I can imagine there might be a whole spectrum of reactions ranging from mild surprise to shock or feeling deceived or lied to. Discomfort. Sympathy. Interest. Disgust?

That could prompt all sorts of negative reactions from subtle to more obvious. All difficult to prove.
I can understand transgender people wanting to protect themselves from that to some extent.

It would be quicker to write out

"YOU STUPID WOMEN"

It's what you mean after all. Just own it

Do you not think that’s been true for many other people in the workplace?

This is how progress happens.

Once again missing the key point that other discrimination is for things that are true, like being gay or of a particular ethnicity.
Men cannot become women so safety, privacy and dignity is compromised in a way it could never be with any other group.
It's nothing like being gay or being black. You can't treat them the same because tras want to, women still have human rights that are equally important too.

If someone learns that a person is a different sex to what they first thought I can imagine there might be a whole spectrum of reactions ranging from mild surprise to shock or feeling deceived or lied to. Discomfort. Sympathy. Interest. Disgust?

Imagine finding out the state and your employers were complicit in the deceit? That you lost the ability to consent to situation because you were told a lie? Or if you are a service user and asked for a women HCP or a female only space, only to find out during or later that your request wasnt just ignored, your ability to withdraw taken away from you?

Government is acting as if the GRA just concerns those who have a certificate, when everyone who needs, wants and has reason to expect single sex spaces and opportunities is impacted.

If sex is relevant, government has no business allowing some people to opt out of truthfully declaring theirs. If it is not relevant, it should not be a part of the lie, it something that shouldnt concern the government.

If sex is important, and the GRA does not change a individuals sex, why issue a new birth certificate? Why introduce something that is know to cause problems unnecessarily?

Oh noes, another thing women might be guilty of.

Ah well my shoulders are broad. Crack on ladies, I'll take this load on.

I think it’s on the understanding that some people do change their physical sex characteristics. Enough that society can generally consider or treat them as if they are that sex. Or as close as possible.

Sex is important, but some of the aspects that make it important are modifiable. We don’t interact with chromosomes, we interact with what we see and perceive in front of us.
Obviously not everyone is going to agree.

It’s not like this is some incredibly rare isolated incident. There’s trans/ transsexual/ third gender types in every country across the world and going back centuries. It’s part of the human race.

Because 99.9999999% of the time, its pretty darn obvious what sodding sex an individual is and, despite all the handmaidenly "well I don't mind" that we hear, most of us DO bloody mind when a clearly identifiable male comes in to our changing room at the pool.

Fuckksake

No, I don't think that flies any more since all activism and challenges to existing practice, both UK and internationally, has been to divorce the concept of transition from any medical/surgical process.

Can't have it both ways - "This is needed because transitioned person is read as their gender rather than sex" AND "gender is what the individual says it is no matter the perception of the viewer".

Third spaces fixes all of this.

The women who have been lucky and privileged enough to not get the problem or mind or have any life experiences or protected characteristics that get in the way of their choices can use the mixed sex spaces to their hearts' content.

The women who need single sex spaces can use the single sex female only space. Everyone has access, everyone has privacy, dignity, consent, it's all fine.

The only problem will be men who will insist that without entering and dominating a female only space with non consenting women forced to accept their cock or be punished with exclusion their lives are uncomplete.

And those men will not be in any way unambiguous.

The legislation in the UK (GRA and EA) is worded so that a man who says he identifies as a woman, but looks just like any other man (beard, full male genitalia) has to be treated exactly the same as a transsexual who has had full genital surgery and looks more like a woman.

So when we interact with what we see in front of us, which is clearly a male, we're guilty of being hateful bigots.

And if you look at traditional 'third genders' around the world, you'll find they're generally a way of accommodating male homosexuals or allowing women to do unwomanly things like own property.

I think it’s on the understanding that some people do change their physical sex characteristics. Enough that society can generally consider or treat them as if they are that sex. Or as close as possible.

When did we agree this as a society?

A women with a mastectomy is still a women regardless of the reasons, same if a man has is testicles removed.

Does any man without testicles get to hide their sex, or just the ones doing it for gender reasons?

*I think it’s on the understanding that some people do change their physical sex characteristics. Enough that society can generally consider or treat them as if they are that sex. Or as close as possible.

Sex is important, but some of the aspects that make it important are modifiable. We don’t interact with chromosomes, we interact with what we see and perceive in front of us.*

You're expecting 'society' participate in fraud, for people to embrace defrauding themselves.

www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/woman-who-posed-man-have-relationship-woman-convicted-sexual-assault

I do not consent.

I can take the blame on Tuesday afternoons if you want to organise a rota, Winnading.

Ha at @ArabellaScott and @Winnading

At least there’s humour, we’re going to need it

I can do a couple of 2 am to 5 am slots, as I'm sure I'm probably to blame for something! I usually am!

Ooh, 2 am to 5 am is good Worrying Time, beetle. You'll get a right lot of productive guilt and angst in then.

I know! That's why I'm usually awake then, so a bit of extra guilt won't touch the sides

Wondered where you two were!

Will we need to do the whole sackcloth thing? Can we wear a sackcloth under an Ooodie?

Can you just put some tinsel a pearls on it or maybe dye it pink.

Aww thanks bella and boiled. I've been off these threads for a while. And changed name as you do on occasion.

I shall take you both up on your kind offers.

Cant remember what days and times, menopause, but yeah sure. You do your bit and I'll carry the rest.

No worries

Cool. I'll get some repentance practise in.