Model transitions but expects to carry on earning as much as pre transition.

Rainbowshit · 2023-12-21T21:08:39+00:00

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12890405/Fashion-model-Frances-Coombe-sues-agency-civil-rights-violations-claiming-career-destroyed-came-transgender-told-insufficiently-masculine-work-man.html they always look so unwell after transitioning. She destroyed her own career. Did she really expect to just switch to male modelling? 🙈

Soubriquet · 21/12/2023 21:12

I don’t get how they thought they would get the same sort of money. Male models are generally very muscular, tall and ooze sex appeal…

Like you said, this person looks ill, and like any one you could find on the street. Not what people want male models for

BigBoysDontCry · 21/12/2023 21:17

It's a career based entirely on what you look like. It's fickle anyway and the look they want changes all the time.

If you choose to completely change what you look like, it's hardly anyone else's fault that the industry doesn't like it.

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:20

Bit more complex than that (as always) if you actually read past the headline. The agency tried to force him to continue to model women's clothes and use she/her pronouns, and repeatedly misgendered him at work, which is clearly not ok. It doesn't say anything about him expecting his earnings to be "exactly the same", but it is reasonable not to expect to be dropped by your agency completely without warning.

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 21:21

So a model agency didn’t want them as a male model and so dropped them and this model is suing? Righto! All that talk about ‘force’, I suspect it was more ‘if you want the job and want to get paid, this is on offer’. Surely these models are hired per gig and if they don’t want that gig they can refuse it. But they cannot force a modeling agency to represent them if they have deliberately changed their body to something that agency doesn’t want.

Or is modeling in Canada handled differently?

SausageAndEggSandwich · 21/12/2023 21:24

I thought pre-transition Coombe was very beautiful - I can see why they were employed as a model for so long.

But post transition - puffy looking face, extremely thin but also recognisably female features. If you want to be a male model, then you errrrrr, have to look like one? Surely?

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 21/12/2023 21:24

I thought it was common knowledge that male models earn significantly less than female ones. So even if they had ‘passed’ they’ll have earned less

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 21:25

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:20

Bit more complex than that (as always) if you actually read past the headline. The agency tried to force him to continue to model women's clothes and use she/her pronouns, and repeatedly misgendered him at work, which is clearly not ok. It doesn't say anything about him expecting his earnings to be "exactly the same", but it is reasonable not to expect to be dropped by your agency completely without warning.

Why? The agency said that they didn’t want this person to model as a male?

How does a modeling agency ‘force’ a model to wear female clothes? Surely a model is contracted to wear what the client hiring them wants them to wear. The model either chooses to do the gig or not under the contract.

If a modelling agency has contracted a female model to wear female clothes, wouldn’t it be a breach of contract to refuse to model female clothes?

puffyisgood · 21/12/2023 21:26

yeah, the market for skinny, pointy-chinned, five foot something, 30-something, male models isn't what it was.

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:26

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 21:21

So a model agency didn’t want them as a male model and so dropped them and this model is suing? Righto! All that talk about ‘force’, I suspect it was more ‘if you want the job and want to get paid, this is on offer’. Surely these models are hired per gig and if they don’t want that gig they can refuse it. But they cannot force a modeling agency to represent them if they have deliberately changed their body to something that agency doesn’t want.

Or is modeling in Canada handled differently?

"Continue to dress as a woman or we'll fire you for being trans" is a pretty forceful position.

Do you think it's ok for people to lose their jobs because they are trans?

It seems unlikely there are zero modelling jobs out there for someone androgynous, non-binary or visibly trans masc, especially in this day and age.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 21/12/2023 21:27

Person who buys into gendered stereotypes is upset that they don't fit opposite-sex-derived gendered stereotypes. You couldn't make it up.

LizzieSiddal · 21/12/2023 21:27

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:20

Bit more complex than that (as always) if you actually read past the headline. The agency tried to force him to continue to model women's clothes and use she/her pronouns, and repeatedly misgendered him at work, which is clearly not ok. It doesn't say anything about him expecting his earnings to be "exactly the same", but it is reasonable not to expect to be dropped by your agency completely without warning.

Agree with this.

As the model was signed to an exclusive contract, they had no choice but to continue working for that agency. The company should have just sent them for male jobs, they would have either got them or not. I really don’t see a problem with the model requesting not to wear women's clothes etc.

Theinnocenteyeballsinthesky · 21/12/2023 21:31

The agency appear to have behaved utterly appallingly

PermanentTemporary · 21/12/2023 21:32

The agency comes across as pretty stupid if what Coombes says is correct - the model has a very high fashion look, they do runways not cardigan adverts and I would have thought a nonbinary but experienced model would be a great USP for the agency, at least for specific looks and shows.

But it seems incredibly unlikely that a female model is ever going to fit male sample sizes (have you seen the shape of the runway male models?) and the agency would get an earful for sending models that don't fit.

Industry that loves gender ideology is in fact oppressive and ruthlessly commercial shocker!

FranticallyFrank · 21/12/2023 21:32

It doesn’t sound like the agency handled this very well but who knows what really went on. This person needed to make money so did they really refuse the women’s jobs? Obviously they were not going to get booked as a male.

Modelling is not equal opportunities. It’s a job for a very small number of people who fulfill a precise physical criteria.

Original poster

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2023 21:33

Do you think it's ok for people to lose their jobs because they are trans?

No, but she signed a contract as a female model. Yet seems like she refused to model as a female? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Really difficult position for the agency to be put in. And it's her word against theirs.

OP posts:

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 21:33

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:26

"Continue to dress as a woman or we'll fire you for being trans" is a pretty forceful position.

Do you think it's ok for people to lose their jobs because they are trans?

It seems unlikely there are zero modelling jobs out there for someone androgynous, non-binary or visibly trans masc, especially in this day and age.

Show quote history

I think if a modelling agency contracted a female model then if that female person doesn’t want to model as a female person anymore and the modelling agency doesn’t want to hire them as a male model then I would think there would be a breach of contract. The contract was issued for a specific purpose, that is the job description. It is a modelling agency not a customer service centre role.

Why do you think a modelling agency should accept this change of contract? It is modelling. The agency needs specific skills. It is highly relevant to the type of work.

SabrinaThwaite · 21/12/2023 21:35

The agency needs specific skills.

The agency needs a specific look. A female model not fitting the required look of male models is hardly a shocker.

HardcoreLadyType · 21/12/2023 21:36

LizzieSiddal · 21/12/2023 21:27

Agree with this.

As the model was signed to an exclusive contract, they had no choice but to continue working for that agency. The company should have just sent them for male jobs, they would have either got them or not. I really don’t see a problem with the model requesting not to wear women's clothes etc.

Show quote history

Surely the client would have requested a “type”. The agency can’t just send any model they happen to have on their books. They have to send someone who the client is likely to want, otherwise the agency will start to lose work, as clients move to more reliable agencies.

I agree that the model should not have to wear women’s clothes if they don’t want to, though, but they have to accept they are limiting their potential to be hired.

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 21/12/2023 21:37

Helleofabore · 21/12/2023 21:33

I think if a modelling agency contracted a female model then if that female person doesn’t want to model as a female person anymore and the modelling agency doesn’t want to hire them as a male model then I would think there would be a breach of contract. The contract was issued for a specific purpose, that is the job description. It is a modelling agency not a customer service centre role.

Why do you think a modelling agency should accept this change of contract? It is modelling. The agency needs specific skills. It is highly relevant to the type of work.

Show quote history

Exactly. I'm not sure Prawn understands how models are selected. Agencies specialise in certain things as they have relationships with organisations who have specific aesthetics and styles. Modelling agencies reject the vast majority of applicants. If Frances wants to model androgynously then Frances should wait until Frances's contract expires (like so many other artists locked by some contract or other... #freekesha, this isn't a transphobic issue, it's a model/movie/music industry issue) then submit Frances's pictures to an agency that handles that, and go through the selection process.

If Frances wants to challenge the entire ridiculous misogynistic concept of the modelling industry then Frances could maybe do that instead, but Frances seemed happy to benefit from it when Frances offered something that people wanted to pay money for.

Shadowsindarkplaces · 21/12/2023 21:41

Agency signs female model, assigned work to female model and isn't gaslit into believing she is now he.
'She should have quit when deciding to be male, then reapplied as he. and been rejected, as not male model standard
Lesson in self sabotage there for transitioners, be careful what you wish for.

PrawnLiberationFront · 21/12/2023 21:43

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2023 21:33

Do you think it's ok for people to lose their jobs because they are trans?

No, but she signed a contract as a female model. Yet seems like she refused to model as a female? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Really difficult position for the agency to be put in. And it's her word against theirs.

Modelling contracts don't get you to sign as a "female model". That's not a job title.

leeloo1 · 21/12/2023 21:43

Did anyone else snigger a bit at the model suing for damages ‘including back pay and front pay’? 🙈

Psychoticbreak · 21/12/2023 21:44

The agency should sue her for trying to get them to falsely advertise.

Bookgrrrl · 21/12/2023 21:48

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2023 21:33

Do you think it's ok for people to lose their jobs because they are trans?

No, but she signed a contract as a female model. Yet seems like she refused to model as a female? 🤷🏻‍♀️ Really difficult position for the agency to be put in. And it's her word against theirs.

In the normal run of things, it’s also not ok for people to lose their jobs because they gain a bit of weight. But if a model gained a stone or two, doubtless be told they had two choices, diet or not work. It’s perfectly possible to say “no, I won’t diet” or “no I won’t model as a female”, but expecting to keep a job when you’ve totally changed the parameters to suit yourself, regardless of whether it works for your employer, isn’t reasonable.

Original poster

Rainbowshit · 21/12/2023 21:49

Modelling contracts don't get you to sign as a "female model". That's not a job title.

Huh! Where did I say female model is a job title?

She signed a contract as a model of the female sex. She was signed for a particular look. Taking hormones and changing the way she looks to be more masculine and refusing to go for the jobs the agency wants to send her for surely must be a breach of contract?

OP posts: