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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Transphobic bullying is rife": 15 y/o trans boy's view of coming out at school

1000 replies

ButterflyHatched · 20/12/2023 17:44

A rare and refreshing example of the mainstream media actually publishing a young trans person's own words on the subject of their own existence and how the government's draft guidance is likely to affect the people it directly pertains to.

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school | Transgender | The Guardian

‘Transphobic bullying is rife’: a 15-year-old trans boy’s view of coming out at school

Newton Carey gives his view after draft guidance was issued by the UK government

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/20/transphobic-bullying-trans-boy-view-of-coming-out-school-uk-government-guidance

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 17:00

Personally I'm totally fine with mixed sex parking spaces. YMMV

Helleofabore · 29/12/2023 17:05

Soggycocopops · 29/12/2023 16:44

We have disabled parking space and many changes in society to make life as inclusive as possible for all forms of disabilities.

To acknowledge Trans inclusion in as many shape and form in society is a good starting point.

While you are posting your solution, can you also make sure it accommodates all the gender identities. Not just those who declare they are either a woman or a man. But those who are nonbinary and all the rest of the genders that have unique needs.

Can you also recommend how you intend to future proof the solution so that when we have thousands of identities under the trans umbrella, they are all accommodated? Or do you think we should just ignore any future identities?

ApocalipstickNow · 29/12/2023 17:08

Some kind of rainbow badge scheme?

I feel I have to clarify that is a joke.

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 29/12/2023 17:49

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 16:52

Ah come on. Women are obligated to be kind. So just shut up and let them all in. If Big Dave turns out to be a rapist you can always call the police afterwards.

Now, now Arabella surely you aren't suggesting that 'the moral obligation society has to centre the needs of vulnerable people' only stretches to a certain group of people who regard themselves as the most vulnerable (although how vulnerable Dave/Doris actually is is debatable) but doesn't extend to vulnerable women and girls.

nothingcomestonothing · 29/12/2023 17:52

I do think if we try and understand the pains trans people are experiencing, a compromise somewhere is possible. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Please explain what compromise is possible which simultaneously gives women single sex spaces, and transpeople access to the spaces they wish to present as belonging to.

Do you think any of the women here wouldn't be all over a compromise, if one existed? That we're in this because it's fun to be threatened with rape, have our children doxxed, our employers harassed?

You want us to #bekind to transpeople, so maybe you should #bekind and 'try and understand the pains' women are experiencing.

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 17:54

Girlontherailreplacementbusservice · 29/12/2023 17:49

Now, now Arabella surely you aren't suggesting that 'the moral obligation society has to centre the needs of vulnerable people' only stretches to a certain group of people who regard themselves as the most vulnerable (although how vulnerable Dave/Doris actually is is debatable) but doesn't extend to vulnerable women and girls.

Obviously! If cervix havers don't like the feminine submissive role they should just be transmasc.

WhereIsBebèsChambre · 29/12/2023 17:56

Soggycocopops · 29/12/2023 16:44

We have disabled parking space and many changes in society to make life as inclusive as possible for all forms of disabilities.

To acknowledge Trans inclusion in as many shape and form in society is a good starting point.

Is this what they mean by jumping the shark? Trans specific parking or a badge to make sure they get special service?
The nhs are on this already with the bloody lanyards and pins they keep foisting on us!

FrippEnos · 29/12/2023 17:57

ButterflyHatched · 29/12/2023 15:43

Hard not to be brought into this issue when you have posters in this thread advocating for our removal from single sex spaces.

but you are trans and not intersex.

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 17:58

I do think if we try and understand the pains trans people are experiencing, a compromise somewhere is possible. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game

Hang on a second. Why aren't the trans-women understanding of the pains women have and are happy to make a compromise to protect women?

Why is it one way traffic?

Why is it a zero sum where the women lose their dignity and men give up fuck all and nothing is done to tackle male violence?

IdealHomeExhibition · 29/12/2023 18:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TWETMIRF · 29/12/2023 18:04

FrippEnos · 29/12/2023 17:57

but you are trans and not intersex.

I think that Butterfly has said that Butterfly is both. Butterfly has a DSD that only affects males but believes themself to be a woman

IdealHomeExhibition · 29/12/2023 18:05

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 13:18

Oh look validation. And a massive post.

On a thread about bullying school child. Oh wait no it's not is it?

No it's a load of codswallop about dead majors who can't take their daughter to a royal wedding because they've been castrated.

Like it's codswallop slicing off a man's penis makes him a girl.

ArabellaScott · 29/12/2023 18:06

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 17:58

I do think if we try and understand the pains trans people are experiencing, a compromise somewhere is possible. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game

Hang on a second. Why aren't the trans-women understanding of the pains women have and are happy to make a compromise to protect women?

Why is it one way traffic?

Why is it a zero sum where the women lose their dignity and men give up fuck all and nothing is done to tackle male violence?

Duh-uh, cause women are the service humans, Red!

Helleofabore · 29/12/2023 18:09

nothingcomestonothing · 29/12/2023 17:52

I do think if we try and understand the pains trans people are experiencing, a compromise somewhere is possible. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

Please explain what compromise is possible which simultaneously gives women single sex spaces, and transpeople access to the spaces they wish to present as belonging to.

Do you think any of the women here wouldn't be all over a compromise, if one existed? That we're in this because it's fun to be threatened with rape, have our children doxxed, our employers harassed?

You want us to #bekind to transpeople, so maybe you should #bekind and 'try and understand the pains' women are experiencing.

This may be the same old, same old drive by scolding. I will be really happy to be proven wrong and that this poster really has thought as long and as deep about this as the posters they are scolding.

I would really like to see some substance though.

MichelleScarn · 29/12/2023 18:21

RedToothBrush · 29/12/2023 17:58

I do think if we try and understand the pains trans people are experiencing, a compromise somewhere is possible. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game

Hang on a second. Why aren't the trans-women understanding of the pains women have and are happy to make a compromise to protect women?

Why is it one way traffic?

Why is it a zero sum where the women lose their dignity and men give up fuck all and nothing is done to tackle male violence?

But but, I thought trans woman ARE women... and this must be believed or cast out from society so how can their pain be anything special?! Oh tis a head spin!!

Woman2023 · 29/12/2023 18:21

I think that Butterfly has said that Butterfly is both. Butterfly has a DSD that only affects males but believes themself to be a woman

If it is the case that Butterfly has a DSD that makes them appear female then I can't see a problem with them in female spaces as no-one would perceive them as male.

If Butterfly would be perceived as male naturally but identifies as trans and performs femininity to be understood as trans then Butterfly should not be in female only spaces.

I would be amazed if the first option is true as Butterfly seems to identify primarily as trans which is based on self identity not on objective facts.

FrippEnos · 29/12/2023 18:24

TWETMIRF · 29/12/2023 18:04

I think that Butterfly has said that Butterfly is both. Butterfly has a DSD that only affects males but believes themself to be a woman

I am honestly lost with whatever butterfly is or isn't or both.

Helleofabore · 29/12/2023 18:37

Woman2023 · 29/12/2023 18:21

I think that Butterfly has said that Butterfly is both. Butterfly has a DSD that only affects males but believes themself to be a woman

If it is the case that Butterfly has a DSD that makes them appear female then I can't see a problem with them in female spaces as no-one would perceive them as male.

If Butterfly would be perceived as male naturally but identifies as trans and performs femininity to be understood as trans then Butterfly should not be in female only spaces.

I would be amazed if the first option is true as Butterfly seems to identify primarily as trans which is based on self identity not on objective facts.

Even seeing images of males with CAIS, it seems very rare that even these male people ‘pass’.

However, if you are a girl or women who requires a female single space, does it matter who ‘passes’ or not ? Or is it a case of ‘what those girls and women don’t know, won’t hurt them’ in your opinion? When we have heard from some of those women that yes, it still matters that they were deceived into thinking they were safe and let their guard down only to discover they have been gaslighted.

WickedSerious · 29/12/2023 19:03

FrippEnos · 29/12/2023 18:24

I am honestly lost with whatever butterfly is or isn't or both.

It must be fluid,a lot of things are nowadays.

MargotBamborough · 29/12/2023 19:29

ButterflyHatched · 29/12/2023 13:16

Thankyou! Really didn't want this thread to turn into yet another round of 'grill Butterfly for five pages on whether she really really actually really honestly looks enough like a Real Woman(tm) to experience misogyny, then seamlessly switch to saying that reporting the daily experience of having to deal with it must be some kind of skeevy fetish'. I tried to suggest we skip straight to this part - thanks for choosing to engage in good faith. It is very much appreciated - hope it wasn't too tedious to read.

I think that we have a moral obligation, as a society, to strive for compassionate policies that centre the struggles of vulnerable and marginalised people. I think it is even more especially important to bear this in mind at times like these where the easily-demonised become electorial punchbags.

While it is tempting to angle for segregation on the grounds of genetic markers, I think it is also important to acknowledge the reality of what that actually means. A chromosome isn't a magic jar that contains an indivisible and pure essence of maleness or femaleness.

It's a chaotic, fuzzy and fragile set of templates the body copies and translates when making proteins, the process (and even presence) of which is subject to an enormous range of environmental factors (and constant errors). Sex hormones and their effects are one of these environmental factors and they play an enormous role in how our bodies develop and maintain themselves. A single mutation in a single gene somewhere in the past made my body partially immune to the effects of testosterone and catapulted my life trajectory. I have XY chromosomes which usually cause a particular physical expression, but my body has built itself in a way that is aligned with a different physical expression. It would be patently ridiculous to any person who knows me to say I should use male facilities as I am clearly female. I know it's an edge case, but edge cases are the people who get marginalised by poorly written legislation.

I don't think the presence or lack thereof of sex hormones is a good basis of classification either - any route we take here ends up with an enormous amount of clearly inappropriate collateral.

Since chromosomes don't actually do what they are commonly misunderstood as doing (much to the enduring frustration of biologists), and the presence of hormones themselves doesn't tell us anything about who people are, what classification can we use?

Could we use the historical presence of hormones, or their effects? Well, that automatically excludes most people who medically transition from either category and many intersex people as well. People stuck in waiting list limbo - up to half a decade currently - are going to fall afoul of this one if we go with a 'most recent influence' approach, and it completely fails to account for people who do not medically transition anyway.

What do we do? Do we give up and tell this set of marginalised people they are once again not worthy of consideration? This government has managed a pretty solid line on that stance, especially over the last couple of years, so it's not entirely unexpected alas. I think we can do better though.

What's left? Well:

*Gender reassignment means proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process to reassign your sex. To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any medical treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.

You can be at any stage in the transition process, from proposing to reassign your sex, undergoing a process of reassignment, or having completed it. It does not matter whether or not you have applied for or obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate, which is the document that confirms the change of a person's legal sex.*

What's legal sex?

*You must not be discriminated against because:

  • you are (or are not) a particular sex
  • someone thinks you are the opposite sex (this is known as discrimination by perception)
  • you are connected to someone of a particular sex (this is known as discrimination by association)
In the Equality Act 2010, sex is understood as binary being either male or female. It can mean a group of people like men or boys, or women or girls. Under the Act, a person’s legal sex is the sex recorded on their birth certificate or their Gender Recognition Certificate. A trans person can change their legal sex by obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate. *

I think we should use the legislation that already exists - and was achieved after years of campaigning by the minority group it protects - to cover these situations. It's imperfect though, as it leaves non-binary and non-medical trans people behind. Perhaps if there was some kind of consultation on ways to improve the GRA we might be able to help? Of course, any open process pertaining to the delicate needs of a small minority group would be vulnerable to being swamped by bad faith actors, and there is the danger that it would be taken as an opportunity to have a chip at removing the GRA entirely.

Well I think we have a moral obligation to strive for compassionate policies which centre the needs of women and girls.

If a particular subset of men believe they are genuinely marginalised and need rights that no one else has, it's really on them to show their working (i.e. demonstrate that they are actually marginalised rather than merely identifying as marginalised) and come up with solutions which don't remove rights for women and girls.

If it's not possible to balance the rights of women and girls and the rights of trans people then I'm afraid women and girls should take priority because there are more of us.

PS - please stop insulting everyone's intelligence by continuing to suggest that it is difficult to tell whether people are male or female. It isn't. Being male and wanting to be female is not the same as there actually being any ambiguity. We can't always have everything we want in life. And if it weren't already obvious who is male and who is female, another good way of telling would be this: how easy do you find it to tell this group of people that they can't have what they want because the world does not revolve around them and what they want? If the answer is easy, they're probably female. If the answer is difficult, they're probably male. Which is how you have apparently made it 40 years without ever hearing the word "no".

MargotBamborough · 29/12/2023 19:34

PorcelinaV · 29/12/2023 13:22

@StragglyTinsel

Id argue that a genuinely empathetic approach to people who believe they are born in the wrong body is high quality mental health support to come to terms with material reality. Empathy doesn’t mean ‘affirm all their beliefs and give them what they want’.

Yeah, but that's going to depend on medical evidence for which approach works best. And we have the problem of what do we do if the evidence is limited and unclear.

However, I'm inclined to think it's a mistake to accept the other side's premise that it's wrong to be trying to cure people.

Of course we should be trying to cure people. Why is this even controversial?

bellac11 · 29/12/2023 19:45

If someone has body dysmorphia to the degree they are anorexic or want to chop their arm off, we try to cure them

Quite rightly

EasternStandard · 29/12/2023 19:47

Plus we definitely don’t pass laws and completely reorder society, to the detriment of over half, to validate the dysmorphia for a tiny minority

WickedSerious · 29/12/2023 19:50

ApocalipstickNow · 29/12/2023 17:08

Some kind of rainbow badge scheme?

I feel I have to clarify that is a joke.

Edited

And a big,sparkly 'T' in the special parking space.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 29/12/2023 20:06

I’m feeling that 2024 is the year we raise a ‘hell NO’ as people get fed up with whinging people demanding extra rights and kid gloves, whilst treating women like cattle.

hellNO

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