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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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28
thirdfiddle · 21/12/2023 12:34

Dawn Butler MP insinuates blame at the government. https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1737551048481386936
Shocking behaviour.

https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1737551048481386936

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 12:38

Idiot. How is this murder the fault of the government? Complete non sequitur to crowbar in some TRA ally virtue signalling.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 12:40

I don't see how anyone really benefits from naming the murderers. They then gain notoriety and from that status in its own right (keeping in mind the obsession with murder and fascination with serial killers) and any siblings and extended family members are tarred with it.

NotBadConsidering · 21/12/2023 12:41

thirdfiddle · 21/12/2023 12:34

Dawn Butler MP insinuates blame at the government. https://twitter.com/DawnButlerBrent/status/1737551048481386936
Shocking behaviour.

What a disgrace. I can’t see replies but I hope she’s being ratioed.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 12:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 12:38

Idiot. How is this murder the fault of the government? Complete non sequitur to crowbar in some TRA ally virtue signalling.

A long term and chronic shortage of funding for special needs, social support and mental health support for kids could be laid at the foot of the government quite happily and easily TBF. It's an area which is having a massive impact in multiple ways not just those potentially linked to this case. And pretty much every child would benefit either directly or indirectly to a degree.

I don't get why this isn't the angle being taken by Butler - it potentially covers transphobia, violent conduct amongst teens and anxiety and other mental health issues (but of course would commit Labour to then having to fund it and doesn't fit the cheaper authoritarian narrative...).

tattygrl · 21/12/2023 12:54

The thing is, if a woman or girl was killed and then misogynistic messages were found on the phones of the perpetrators, we'd all be saying this was evidence of it being a misogynistic, woman-hating crime. We can do trans people the same justice of acknowledging that hatred of someone for being trans was at play here, whether it was the primary motive in choosing their victim in the first place. It is disgraceful to say things like "they'd have said horrible things about whoever they chose to target" when the transphobia is brought up. It's relevant. How the perpetrators view their victim is relevant.

I am critical of gender ideology, but that doesn't mean transphobia isn't real.

Catsanfan · 21/12/2023 12:56

Can't find the tweets right now but has anyone else seen India Willoughby directly blaming JKR, Piers Morgan, Kathleen Stock and others directly for Brianna's death? And someone else replied jumping on the bandwagon blaming several others as well including Glinner and Menno?

Surely they can sue for that?!

FriendOfTimo · 21/12/2023 12:56

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 12:40

I don't see how anyone really benefits from naming the murderers. They then gain notoriety and from that status in its own right (keeping in mind the obsession with murder and fascination with serial killers) and any siblings and extended family members are tarred with it.

Naming the convicted probably adds a significant of cost to public funds too (although it sounds like Girl X’s family may already need a police-managed relocation package).

in my friend’s case, the 3 (young) adults were named at trial and the three minors were anonymous until about a week after sentencing when the judge decided they could be named (probably a bit impractical to have all 6 convicted but 3 anon, seeing as they were known associates of each other, bit different in this scenario where either neither are named or both are).

thirdfiddle · 21/12/2023 12:57

I don't see how anyone really benefits from naming the murderers. They then gain notoriety and from that status in its own right (keeping in mind the obsession with murder and fascination with serial killers) and any siblings and extended family members are tarred with it.

Looks like the judge's reasoning is they're already 16, it'll come out when they're 18 anyway and that would generate another burst of publicity so better for all concerned to get it out of the way. The local community must know anyway.

WickedSerious · 21/12/2023 12:57

PrimalLass · 21/12/2023 11:28

Jolyon is an utter buffoon and also boasted about battering a fox. Why anyone would pay him for advice is beyond me.

I wouldn't pay him to pick up the rubbish that gets blown onto our drive.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 13:08

tattygrl · 21/12/2023 12:54

The thing is, if a woman or girl was killed and then misogynistic messages were found on the phones of the perpetrators, we'd all be saying this was evidence of it being a misogynistic, woman-hating crime. We can do trans people the same justice of acknowledging that hatred of someone for being trans was at play here, whether it was the primary motive in choosing their victim in the first place. It is disgraceful to say things like "they'd have said horrible things about whoever they chose to target" when the transphobia is brought up. It's relevant. How the perpetrators view their victim is relevant.

I am critical of gender ideology, but that doesn't mean transphobia isn't real.

They wanted to kill one of five people. Four weren't transgender. This is why transphobic hate crime was ruled out by the the police and the justice system.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 13:09

A long term and chronic shortage of funding for special needs, social support and mental health support for kids could be laid at the foot of the government quite happily and easily TBF. It's an area which is having a massive impact in multiple ways not just those potentially linked to this case. And pretty much every child would benefit either directly or indirectly to a degree.

Yes I take your point on that. But I doubt Butler meant it that way, as you acknowledge.

tattygrl · 21/12/2023 13:12

PaperWalkAndTalk · 21/12/2023 13:08

They wanted to kill one of five people. Four weren't transgender. This is why transphobic hate crime was ruled out by the the police and the justice system.

I understand that. I still believe it is wrong to take transphobia out of the equation. I wouldn't want to if it was a killing of a woman and the killer was found to have misogynistic messages on their phone. I wonder also if it's relevant that they listed all boys as potential victims, and Brianna. As if they viewed her as a boy. I don't know. I feel icky speculating. But it feels profoundly wrong to me to write off the transphobic bile they shared as irrelevant when they then went on to kill a trans girl.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 13:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 13:09

A long term and chronic shortage of funding for special needs, social support and mental health support for kids could be laid at the foot of the government quite happily and easily TBF. It's an area which is having a massive impact in multiple ways not just those potentially linked to this case. And pretty much every child would benefit either directly or indirectly to a degree.

Yes I take your point on that. But I doubt Butler meant it that way, as you acknowledge.

Totally.

My point is there is a really good and strong political point that could be used to bash the government. One that's pretty indisputable. And when I see this I think it's always important to ask why that type of argument ISN'T being used instead?

The fact we have this whole culture war going on is terrible because it means the REAL issues that underlay and underpin broader more common problems are being totally ignored because of buzz words.

In this case it's easy to focus on where the transphobia has been used rather than see the whole picture. It's cheaper and it's 'the simple fix' con - where it doesn't really make things any better for anyone but you get to feel like you've changed the world. I said that on the other thread that's what really bothered me about this case - the over looking of safeguarding generally and what went wrong for all three and how. Which is massively complex and will be multiple failings at many levels.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 13:23

It's possible to both think that the comment was transphobic and dehumanising and not think it had anything to do with the motive. @tattygrl

SaffronSpice · 21/12/2023 13:47

One that's pretty indisputable.

That children with SEN and mental health difficulties if left unsupported will become murderers? I find that offensive.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 14:10

That children with SEN and mental health difficulties if left unsupported will become murderers?

I honestly can’t find that anywhere in RedToothBrush’s post. In fact I got the impression she was largely talking about support services for children like Brianna to reduce their vulnerability.

The full reason these two particular children became murderers is unlikely to ever be known. But there are plenty of factors with increase the probability of children committing crimes. The more general explosion in knife crime among teenagers when we’ve seen over the last few years is something which could definitely be reduced by properly funding support services.

Onionsmadeofglass · 21/12/2023 14:17

tattygrl · 21/12/2023 13:12

I understand that. I still believe it is wrong to take transphobia out of the equation. I wouldn't want to if it was a killing of a woman and the killer was found to have misogynistic messages on their phone. I wonder also if it's relevant that they listed all boys as potential victims, and Brianna. As if they viewed her as a boy. I don't know. I feel icky speculating. But it feels profoundly wrong to me to write off the transphobic bile they shared as irrelevant when they then went on to kill a trans girl.

Take it out of what equation? Not a goady question, a serious one.
Legally there will be a definition for ´hate crime’ and part of the prosecution and then judge’s job is to decide if this murder fits that definition. The quotes from the Police suggest they believe the motive was not a hatred of trans people or a desire to hurt or scare trans people. Which isn’t to say that transphobia doesn’t exist or that the text exchanges weren’t peppered with unacceptable transphobic remarks.
If the question is ´why did this murder happen’ then the fact the victim was a transgirl apparently really isn’t a major part of the answer.
This is something else. It’s two teens who’ve become obsessed with the idea of killing and who have egged each other on to do it and according to the articles, don’t seem to have shown any remorse. This is a big part of why the killing is shocking and feels a bit different to all the tragic cases of teens getting stabbed in gang disputes or bad breakups. The motive is seriously weird. Much more like a serial killer profile than a violent outburst of poorly controlled emotion or stupid teen boy posturing that gets out of control (like gang wars and gang initiations can be).
Remember that the Police and legal professionals have access to all the evidence and not just the bits that have been reported. There are probably text messages discussing the other potential victims too and there may well have been different dehumanizing ideas happening in those conversations too.

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2023 14:17

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/12/2023 13:23

It's possible to both think that the comment was transphobic and dehumanising and not think it had anything to do with the motive. @tattygrl

This.

The intent wasn't transphobic.
The victim was more vulnerable because of comorbid issues (which probably were compounded by being trans).
This in turn gave the killers more opportunity to carry out their actions.

And the language was about the killers dehumanising and processing based on how they identified with (or more accurately differentiated from) the victim. Any of the potential victims would have been othered in a similar way based on their identity traits. The issue is that trans as an identity is so politically sensitive that it BECOMES the story and it's is then is ASSUMED to be the intent. Even though it's not the driving motivation.

So trans is relevant in terms of social isolation and appalling dehumanisation by it but it's NOT The Singular Why.

Social isolation is key to this case - and you can't get away from three points. The chicken and egg argument and whether social transition may make social isolation worse and whether adequate mental health support was available or perhaps dismissed due to trans identity.

It's an uncomfortable discussion which can go multiple ways particularly for those with a rigid agenda.

If comorbidities are present that raises questions of the value of transition and whether it's seen as a magic bullet. Especially if autism is a driving factor fueled by the social isolation it brings. The idea of transition is rooted in the idea of conformity and fitting into gendered roles better - but if being trans actually alienates you from both sexes it might actually cause more social isolation and less ability to fit in. The TRA argument is that we should just accept people for who they are not what they are - but this doesn't actually solve the internal knowledge of difference anyway, so you can't necessarily just dismiss 'being different' as an external force (which may come in the form of transphobia). And social isolation might be being driven from internal feelings rather than external forces. If there isn't proper support for this (which goes beyond communal shouting transphobia at everyone) you still have an issue.

I'll give this as an example. Family alienation is common for trans people. But back in the day when this was kicking off in my family, there was a slightly different understanding of it being promoted by charities. This was just at the tipping point of where it began to be radicalised and I think think it got ignored by my family because of that radicalisation. It's something I remember well.

The advice my brother had was that many families reject their trans member but it acknowledged the reverse is also true. Many trans people actively distanced themselves from family because they were the biggest reminder of what they weren't - so they rejected their family. My brother was so primed for rejection he lashed out in spite of efforts made to try and accept and his behaviour made it ultimately fulfilling (his partner at the time was rejected so there was masses of projection going on there and honestly it was a really unhealthy dynamic to the point I'd call it abusive).

I ultimately feel that there had to be someone to blame and I was it because DH and I were too much of a reminder (seeing my brother dressed up was like looking in a broken twisted mirror - I wonder what the reverse was like for my brother. And DH fitted the stereotypes of an alpha male perfectly. He was the perfect son in law - the son my dad had 'always wanted' for want of a better way to phrase it)

But you can't ever run away from yourself and it's still always there in the back of your head. It's a demon nagging - "is it cos Im trans?" It becomes the catch all explanation rather than learning to understand social cues better or be more self aware of the impact of your own manner. And this in turn is placed as a one size fits all template for understanding all other trans people and the situations they are in.

It is the removal of all nuance.

So social isolation may be inescapable for some and be made worse by trans. Especially in the cauldron of radicalisation and lack of proper access to appropriate mental health services or social skills support (particularly for those who are autistic).

There are arguments that transphobia drives the mental health issues, thus if you end transphobia (an external force) you end those issues. I really don't buy into this because it's too simplistic - internal forces remain - which activists really don't want to properly discuss and address because this is much more difficult and hugely complex.

The CASS report highlights how homophobia, trauma, autism and sexual abuse were conveniently swept under the carpet by the Tavistock and dismissed in this way by cries of transphobia. Gender dysphoria exists and people are attacked for transphobic reasons BUT the how and why of what's going on underneath still matter otherwise you risk doing more harm. These kids are more vulnerable even without trans.

If we want to do the best for kids who are trans identifying we need to talk about both the external and internal forces at play, how they interact and how may be present at one point but the other more relevant to that particular situation (and the converse true at other times).

Its a hard deeply complex thing and trying to reduce it into 'a magic bullet' simplexity does everyone a massive disservice.

Rightsraptor · 21/12/2023 14:17

I don't know if this has been raised before here, but I'm puzzled about Brianna's mother saying Brianna was usually fearless, when the picture painted is of a fearful child.

The court heard that Brianna seldom went out alone at 16 years of age and sent a message from the bus on the way to the park that dreadful day, and that message said 'I'm scared' or similar words. It seems the fear was about being out on a bus and not, tragically, what might be lying in wait in the park.

Flowers4me · 21/12/2023 14:24

As a SEND parent, the schooling and mental health services are in a really bad way - there's very little SEND support and getting access to CAMHS is almost impossible. It is an excruciating system to navigate for parent and child. More has to be done but the lack of support doesn't mean SEND kids become murderers but it can lead to additional co-morbidities or vulnerabilities. So the issue of vulnerabilities that @RedToothBrush raises is an important one I think. And in my opinion this applies as much to non SEND children and young people because they can also develop difficulties. Add to that the access to violence on the internet, drugs and knife crime and the erosion of youth services etc; I feel for our young people. As a country we need to be doing much much more to look after every one of them.

IcakethereforeIam · 21/12/2023 14:31

Joan Smith in Unherd

https://unherd.com/thepost/stop-exploiting-brianna-gheys-murder/

I've not seen IW tweet until now, it's linked in the article so still seems to be up.

Also 'deadnaming' always seemed to me to be a term that was at best overly dramatic and at worst, as demonstrated starkly by this case, to be in very poor taste.

Stop exploiting Brianna Ghey's murder

The horror of being told that your child has been murdered is almost impossible to imagine. But on top of the maelstrom of emotions, from grief to disbelief, Brianna Ghey’s parents also had to endure discovering details of how the murder was carried ou...

https://unherd.com/thepost/stop-exploiting-brianna-gheys-murder

SaffronSpice · 21/12/2023 14:49

JemimaTiggywinkles · 21/12/2023 14:10

That children with SEN and mental health difficulties if left unsupported will become murderers?

I honestly can’t find that anywhere in RedToothBrush’s post. In fact I got the impression she was largely talking about support services for children like Brianna to reduce their vulnerability.

The full reason these two particular children became murderers is unlikely to ever be known. But there are plenty of factors with increase the probability of children committing crimes. The more general explosion in knife crime among teenagers when we’ve seen over the last few years is something which could definitely be reduced by properly funding support services.

It was in response to Dawn Butler’s post - that rather than blame the government ‘hate towards trans’ for the murder, Dawn Bulter should blame the government’s lack of funding of SEN and CAMHS for the murder.

oakleaffy · 21/12/2023 15:04

A really shocking, upsetting and depressing case.
Poor Brianna and her family.
No one should have their life stolen by awful twisted thugs like this.