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Original poster

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

503 replies

WarriorN · 19/12/2023 10:37

Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance

consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
LeggyLegsEleven · 21/12/2023 23:37

I haven’t read the whole thing. One thing I have noticed in the debates is the use of ‘teacher’.
However in a lot of schools it won’t be a teacher who is having this conversation it will be a member of support staff.
I think ‘teacher’ derails and suggests some training/expertise. I have in the last few years seen 18 year olds employed as pastoral support.
The experience I have of a student changing name at school and family not being told, it was a year manager who organised it all.
In lots of schools/particularly MATS teachers don’t get involved.

Original poster
WarriorN · 22/12/2023 07:05

Yes that's a very good point. We used to have older tas; it's swung to much younger people now.

Coming back to gender and science, this is from a study at kings college London:

Given the lack of empirical evidence supporting gender-identity theory, one should not assume by default that gender-identity is a more powerful explanatory variable than sex. Being an objectively measurable binary variable, sex has considerable explanatory advantages over gender identity.

www.kcl.ac.uk/news/indicators-of-sports-performance

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BonfireLady · 22/12/2023 08:13

BusyMummyWrites · 21/12/2023 12:17

@BonfireLady re the following bit:
In 6.3: "No child should be sanctioned for honest mistakes when adapting to a new way of interacting with another pupil."This wording needs changing. If a child or pupil uses the sex-based pronouns of another child or pupil, this is not a "mistake". It could constitute discrimination if they are doing it vexatiously but if it's simply a statement of (biological) fact, in line with the own protected belief that sex is immutable, it is not a mistake.

Would just note that even if a student purposefully or even vexatiously uses the wrong pronouns, it would still not be discriminatory? If the EA protects for those with/or in the process of obtaining GRCs, and persons under 18 are not eligible to apply, then discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment cannot actually take place?

Agree with everything you say though, and as the mum of an Autistic/ADHD teen with ROGD, I’d say we are well overdue for non-biased research of and provision for autistic teens.

With a huge IMAL caveat, my understanding of the law here is that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment can apply to anyone of any age, regardless of whether they are applying for a GRC or not and that it means that a boy/man going through "gender reassignment" (which can include social transition, because it covers any stage of changing "gender") should be treated no less favourably than a boy/man who isn't. Likewise for a girl/woman.
Following the Forstater case, it's not discrimination to hold and express the belief that someone with this PC retains their sex, but vexatious use of their sex-based pronouns could be discrimatory.
I think that's why it's still fine for a teacher to address a single sex class with the collective noun of "boys" or "girls", as stated in the guidance. Because it's not vexatious.

I'm sorry to hear you're in such a difficult position with your daughter. Our autistic children are being so badly let down ATM. Thankfully this guidance is a step towards putting that right.

BonfireLady · 22/12/2023 08:31

On the subject of Bridget Phillipson, I remember when she did a Mumsnet Q&A and she answered my question about what Labour would do for schools' guidance. She said that they would start a consultation. At this point in time, the Tories had already gone past their deadline of getting the guidance out, so in that context what she was saying was that they would reset it and start the whole thing again.
I don't often find myself agreeing with Robin Moira White but I think Robin may have a point here: Bridget didn't welcome the guidance, she welcomed the consultation.
https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1737517561212731519?t=ME2Wt1CJhfGfPtWscbzlOw&s=19

I get the impression that Labour will (if/when elected) do what they can to draw this out. I do hope that the Tories are going to do the right thing by closing off the consultation and getting the final guidance issued before the election, rather than using it as a tool to garner votes. I've never voted Tory in my life but I'm getting close to being a single issue voter, despite how much I disagree with their position on many other things (and am appalled at their behaviour during covid) but I want action, not rhetoric. If they don't push this through with urgency, I won't trust them to ever do it.

https://twitter.com/moira_robin/status/1737517561212731519?s=19&t=ME2Wt1CJhfGfPtWscbzlOw

AttillaThePlum · 22/12/2023 08:45

@pronounsbundlebundle Yes, this is the big issue - just not creating any more damage to an unhappy child. I have been on various boards/chats with parents in the same situation and even people who have had far worse than us don't want to take the school on. In our case, there was the further issue of a ND child who had finally - after several false starts - found a school that worked for her.

Someone mentioned young and left-wing teachers above. The driving force in our case was a young male teacher who was HoY and very active in the Labour Party.

MsGoodenough · 22/12/2023 08:49

Everyone here needs to fill in the consultation. I'm sure the TRAs will be all over it and we need as many sane responses as possible.

timetorefresh · 22/12/2023 09:28

I've tried to look at the consultation, but can't get to it. I just keep going round in circles. Anyone else finding the same?

PorcelinaV · 22/12/2023 09:52

timetorefresh · 22/12/2023 09:28

I've tried to look at the consultation, but can't get to it. I just keep going round in circles. Anyone else finding the same?

...

Original poster
WarriorN · 22/12/2023 10:28

MsGoodenough · 22/12/2023 08:49

Everyone here needs to fill in the consultation. I'm sure the TRAs will be all over it and we need as many sane responses as possible.

Edited

One of the key points that needs to be highlighted when this is filled in, is that there were x10 the rates of children who had a parent on the sex offender register.

The safeguarding for the child around all this lies around two areas:

• what reasons or external pressures has has led the child to this conclusion?

• the longer term implications of adults agreeing that this conclusion is correct: a) Other issues, potentially very serious such as csa can be missed. B) locking a child into an idea that leads to long term irreversible medical interventions.

And that none of this is in KCSIE or any other recognised statutory guidance or law.

Some of this is touched on but it's far too wooly and will be non statutory.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/12/2023 11:55

Good points WarriorN.

Maybe (after Christmas) a thread about the consultation would be worthwhile. Hopefully parents will be reassured that as Labour have welcomed "the consultation" they're giving tacit approval for people to voice their opinions without the normal bullying that happens so they'll feel encouraged to share their thoughts?

Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:43

Thank you, looking forward to other responses too.

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Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:48

We don't just have a contested belief around gender identity.

There's a 'contested belief' in child safeguarding that identifying as trans is a safeguarding trigger in itself.

KCSIE - the document that is statutory, and all safeguarding training in schools is based on, says it is not.

OP posts:
Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 08:07

I saw that, but with the caveats with in the document-that social transition can happen in rare cases, cross referenced with the Cass review which seems to be leaning towards 'this is under medical supervision,' I'm struggling to see how the reality of that would happen.

Schools are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't now. This guidance actually stops them being sued for keeping secrets. It throws it back to the 'mental health condition' realm rather than as if 'coming out as gay.'

But I'm not a lawyer.

It's draft and so subject to change.

The whole document is more about legalities of the EA which is clearly a mess.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 23/12/2023 08:46

Yes, Warrior, that was the sense I got - everything circles back to the EA being badly drafted law. It's making subsequent legislation very unclear and difficult.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 09:04

WarriorN · 23/12/2023 07:48

We don't just have a contested belief around gender identity.

There's a 'contested belief' in child safeguarding that identifying as trans is a safeguarding trigger in itself.

KCSIE - the document that is statutory, and all safeguarding training in schools is based on, says it is not.

This is a reminder of how catastrophic the linking of the T with LGB has been. However, Ofsted have recently done the Stonewall dump and are now hurrying back across that golden bridge pointing out that schools keeping secrets from parents is a safeguarding matter. Hopefully the final Cass report will make it impossible to see ROGD & little children saying they're the opposite sex as anything but a safeguarding related matter and KCSIE will have to be amended.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/12/2023 09:05

That report card from Sex Matters is great. Look forward to their guidance for the consultation in the New Year

Original poster
WarriorN · 23/12/2023 09:14

Hopefully @MrsOvertonsWindow, the growing evidence suggests there's no other way forward.

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Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:41

Just part of the statement

Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance
Finally: Gender questioning children: draft schools and colleges guidance
Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:44

ChatBFP · 20/12/2023 14:58

@Tandora

If gender is just knowing what sex you are, then my kids both know what sex they are - they refer to their parts by the correct names and say things like "I am a boy because I have a willy and you are a girl because you have a vulva". My kids are 3 and 5, btw. They share a bath often, so they know why they have different bits.

Is this enough to be "their sense of their own sex" to have fixed their gender at their young ages?

If they think they are trans when they are 14, what has happened? Does gender suddenly just change depending on what ideas and stereotypes they get exposed to? In which case, why is it more important than sex, which is a constant through everyone's life and a key determinant of strength, aggression, bone density, propensity for violent crime and risk taking, likelihood of getting pregnant?

Yes, your children have a gender identity. It is perfectly normal and expected by age 3. Most children develop gender constancy- a permanent sense of their gender by age 6: https://srcd.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-8624.2007.01056.x

BonfireLady · 23/12/2023 09:46

I've just read the BBC article and the Sex Matters response. Thanks for posting @ArabellaScott and @MsGoodenough
You can almost feel the glee with which the BBC wrote that article, having an opportunity to spread doubt. However, the Sex Matters response brings back the common sense.
I fully agree with PPs above that any legal ambiguity seems to point more to flaws in the EA than anything else. The unfolding information coming from the Cass Review is key here. I hope that the government is brave enough to publish the guidance with as few compromises as possible once the consultation has finished and will let case law form off the back of it. It would also be very helpful if they change the EA to say that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not apply to anyone under 18 years old.

If the guidance retains the written clarity that not everyone believes we have a gender identity, I can't imagine that many ideologically based challenges would win in court (even with the current issues within the EA). Anything which prioritises one person's belief over another's has no place in law. Anything which risks the mental and physical wellbeing of children has no place in schools.

Tandora · 23/12/2023 09:54

OldCrone · 20/12/2023 15:35

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development.

It's now been twisted to mean the sex a person wants to be, regardless of their actual sex. I think that's how @Tandora is using it. The definition of what a gender identity is becomes circular when used that way which is why @Tandora's definition doesn't make sense.

Show quote history

The term "gender identity" used to be used to mean a child's understanding of what sex they were. It was used that way in academic papers about child development

Yes this is exactly it. It is the same for transgender children. It’s just for trans kids, their understanding of their “sex” differs from the understanding of their sex designated to them at (or these days sometimes before) birth - usually on the basis of genitals (or sometimes chromosomes).
This is rare, but it happens.
You might not like that this happens , but it is very much real and people, including children like this, have existing throughout history in all cultures.
You may want to insist that a person’s gender (understanding of their sex) is based on their genitals (in line with society at large) but this is as harmful as insisting their sexuality is defined by their genitals (as we used to and still do in many parts of the world). You cannot change a young person’s sexuality and you cannot change their gender. This is deeply harmful and wrong; it is dehumanising, degrading and cruel and it leads to terrible outcomes.