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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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WarriorN · 20/12/2023 08:59

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 08:33

The problem, as has been said on here, is that once an entitlement to access opposite sex spaces has been awarded to adult males with a GRC, there’s no practical mechanism for stopping adult males with the PC of GR but without a GRC from accessing that entitlement, nor of stopping adult males without the PC of GR from doing so either.

The GRC is a red herring tbh. You don't need a GRC to access single sex spaces - look at all those men in women's prisons and on hospital wards who don't have one. You can change your sex on your driver's licence or passport without one. And trans people with a GRC can be excluded from single sex spaces so long as it is proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

But the basic assumption is that single sex services should be open to trans people with or without a GRC unless an exemption is asserted.

That's what the guidance is challenging and attempting to change within schools.

As you need to be an adult to have a grc.

But you're right that in reality the whole thing is a massive mess. I do remember a vocal GC transwoman some time ago commenting that the GRA was very woolly anyway.

The whole thing needs an overhaul and was never meant to be used by this many people or this many children. Or schools.

WarriorN · 20/12/2023 09:05

The biggest issue is that suddenly becoming "trans" is not seen as a safeguarding trigger by schools.

It's the tip of the iceberg for any number of other issues and the child's attempt to resolve them.

I don't feel the guidance goes far enough on that.

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 09:05

That's what the guidance is challenging and attempting to change within schools.

Well yes. I think people have been surprised to find that the fact that children cannot get a GRC doesn't mean very much at all and actually it's the protected characteristic of gender reassignment which does apply to children which is causing most of the problems.

ResisterRex · 20/12/2023 09:12

Keegan in The Sun:

www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/25108035/gillian-keegan-trans-guidance-parents-schools/

"The safety and wellbeing of children will always be our primary concern – which is why it is at the heart of this guidance.

It puts beyond doubt that single sex spaces like toilets and changing rooms must be protected and that sports must be kept fair and safe."

And:

"This draft guidance was developed with expert views in mind that social transition is not a neutral act and that it could have significant psychological effects on a child."

KB in the Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12883171/KEMI-BADENOCH-think-governments-guidance-gender-schools-strong-dont-duck-hard-questions.html

"The Government's position on this is clear. First, we believe in dignity and respect and individual freedom.
The rights of one group do not trump the rights of another, and no child should feel that his or her wellbeing and safety has been compromised to accommodate an ideological agenda.
Second, teaching children that you can be born in the 'wrong' body is harmful. Teachers and carers should be reminded that just because a child does not conform to stereotypes associated with being a girl or a boy, that does not mean they should be put on a path to medical or social transition. While legislation exists that allows adults to go through a process to change their legal sex, children's legal sex is always the same as their biological sex.
So, we should be wary of those who speak casually about 'trans children'.
Third, biological sex is real and must be protected. Schools and colleges have specific legal and regulatory duties that are framed by a child's biological sex. This applies in single-sex spaces, like lavatories and changing rooms. Teachers cannot fulfil their safeguarding obligations without acknowledging the reality of biological sex and protecting children accordingly.
Fourth, we believe in freedom of thought, belief and speech. An ideology that seeks to silence dissent or force others to use contested terminology is not a tolerant ideology. This Government does not believe in compelled speech.
I believe the guidance the Government published yesterday will provide the clarity to ensure schools can take a sensible and caring approach to handling this issue."

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 09:15

Schools will follow guidance, beyond a bit of noise from TRAs on social media it’s irrelevant what GRCs do or don’t do for adults.

No one is going to have a mini legal debate over a 12 year old in the wrong facility for their sex and parents have guidance to refer to. Most professionals will be the same.

RebelliousCow · 20/12/2023 09:25

The child, above, was in primary school. There was a similar young girl in my granddaughter's school: came back after lockdown with short hair ( very unusual for girls these days) and declaring she was a boy ( had an older sister who identified as 'non binary'). The school had not encountered this before - but allowed the child to wear the PE kit rather than the girls uniform, though staff continued with her usual name.

The child told her friends they were "transphobic" if they called her by her name or 'misgendered' her. This made them upset and confused. Children that age don't like to be called names - in fact you could even argue that this behaviour towards them was bullying.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 20/12/2023 09:27

The timeline for this needs investigation.

How long have children being able to identify themselves into single sex facilities in schools?

If this has always been the case, why would it have to be kept from other childrens parents? If schools, trans identifying children and their parents knows children with the PC of GR can go into the wrong changing room and toilet, why the secrecy and why is it a shock to other parents?

From a parents point of view, it looks as if schools have commissioned outside agencied to teach children about GI, told them that its their right to use opposite sex facilities in school, and then allowed an increasing number of children to do so. All the time keeping the teaching material and the practice away from parents.

If is was a basic assumption, why doesnt everyone know that?

It looks like schools were making an assumption, and then later saying that there was no guidance from government. But would there be if the assumption wasnt based on the law, and government and parents didnt know the extent of what was going on?

What would be good to know if schools allowed children to identity into the wrong changing rooms and force preferred pronoun before or after seeking advice from the government.

HipTightOnions · 20/12/2023 09:29

But the basic assumption is that single sex services should be open to trans people with or withouta GRC unless an exemption is asserted.

Well that's the BBC's take perhaps. The EHRC simply seem to be confirming that services can be single sex if there is good reason. The exception is "single sex" in the first place: not "single sex without transpeople".

EasternStandard · 20/12/2023 09:33

RebelliousCow · 20/12/2023 09:25

The child, above, was in primary school. There was a similar young girl in my granddaughter's school: came back after lockdown with short hair ( very unusual for girls these days) and declaring she was a boy ( had an older sister who identified as 'non binary'). The school had not encountered this before - but allowed the child to wear the PE kit rather than the girls uniform, though staff continued with her usual name.

The child told her friends they were "transphobic" if they called her by her name or 'misgendered' her. This made them upset and confused. Children that age don't like to be called names - in fact you could even argue that this behaviour towards them was bullying.

Edited

Every adult who has encouraged this outcome is complicit in failing dc

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 09:38

Kemi is just brilliant:

Teachers cannot fulfil their safeguarding obligations without acknowledging the reality of biological sex and protecting children accordingly.

This is so true, and any teacher who does not accept this does not have a place in schools.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/12/2023 09:43

Well that's the BBC's take perhaps. The EHRC simply seem to be confirming that services can be single sex if there is good reason. The exception is "single sex" in the first place: not "single sex without transpeople".

Exactly. It has nothing to do with whether someone is "trans". It's about single sex. TRAs are claiming the right to use opposite sex facilities.

rogdmum · 20/12/2023 09:44

I don’t think it’s good enough for schools to blame the lack of Govt guidance for following the directions of lobby groups like Stonewall. Parents of gender distressed children who have been concerned about the immediate unquestioning affirming approach have been pushing back against this for years

I’m pretty typical of the many hundreds of parents I’ve been in contact with over the past 4 years and here’s what happened to us at George Watson’s College:

  • I provided a mountain of information (research, detransitioner stories, clinician perspectives etc)
  • I offered to pay for the school to have a session with one of the Tavistock whistleblowers so they could hear the concerns which LGBT Youth Scotland (the school is a LGBTYS Gold Award holder) dismiss. This offer was ignored.
  • I invited the Head of support services to a private talk one of the Tavistock whistleblowers was giving. This was ignored.
  • The Head of Guidance and Year Head (who had told me he would not consider the clinical advice we had to not support our daughter’s social transition) attended a session at the Scottish Parliament where Dr David Bell was speaking after I told them II had been invited to speak from the floor

They took all of this information and then unbeknownst to me, incorporated into their schools guidance as not representing “the views of or approach taken by George Watson’s College.”

(The link in the screenshot goes to this: https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Current-Evidence-in-the-Treatment-of-Gender-Dysphoric-Children-and-Young-People.pdf )

Dr Bell spoke on Channel 4 News last night. This is what Watson’s explicitly dismissed (and probably still do as): https://www.channel4.com/news/school-transgender-guidance-very-progressive-claims-dr-david-bell

I now know that my daughter’s teachers had no idea of the extent of what was going on behind the scenes. All they were told was that my daughter identified as a boy, it was to be supported but that her parents did not support it.

Now replicate this up and down the country (well, not the Scottish Parliament bit). Many many schools knew what the concerns were. They chose to ignore all of this in favour of listening to lobby groups. In the meantime, we parents were dismissed and undermined. You can’t blame any of that on a lack of Govt guidance.

School Guidance out Tomorrow
Beowulfa · 20/12/2023 09:47

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 09:38

Kemi is just brilliant:

Teachers cannot fulfil their safeguarding obligations without acknowledging the reality of biological sex and protecting children accordingly.

This is so true, and any teacher who does not accept this does not have a place in schools.

It is bracingly brilliant to see child safeguarding and adult responsibility spelled out clearly.

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 09:47

The whole trans agenda is about bullying. It's all about using unconsenting others to validate an illogical belief system. It's a safeguarding failure that it was ever allowed in schools.

As I noted above, we don't allow religious groups to forcibly convert other students (with teachers going along with it!) and students to claim it's causing them mental distress and damage to their identity if there are children who are not wearing religious dress and observing their religious customs.

Social transition in school is not a neutral act for the child in question, but also it's positively damaging for all the other children - the majority - in that school who are forcibly involved.

The other thing I'm very interested in with all this from a legal point of view is the difference between schools. My Dd's secondary has single sex toilets and always had; there are third spaces for the tiny group of trans children. They share all PHSE / RSE materials used each week with parents and have at least for the last 2 years. Parents and children in schools that don't have these safeguards are surely being discriminated against compared to me and my daughter? They are experiencing a very different educational system and in some cases being forced to go along with a highly contested and unscientific ideology.

Sharing PHSE / RSE with parents (who have primary safeguarding responsibility for their children) should be part of a good safeguarding culture IMO - safeguarding is about good communication. If your child comes home with a confused message about something in RSE you can't possibly properly support them without knowing what they've been told in school.

nothingcomestonothing · 20/12/2023 09:51

But the basic assumption is that single sex services should be open to trans people with or without a GRC unless an exemption is asserted.

I think that's the wrong way up. Services should be open to anyone, unless there's a good reason for them not to be. Single sex services are allowed where there is a good reason for that. If services are open to people of both sexes, they're not single sex services. The fact that they are provided as single sex services, is the assertion of the exemption.

nothingcomestonothing · 20/12/2023 09:56

rogdmum · 20/12/2023 09:44

I don’t think it’s good enough for schools to blame the lack of Govt guidance for following the directions of lobby groups like Stonewall. Parents of gender distressed children who have been concerned about the immediate unquestioning affirming approach have been pushing back against this for years

I’m pretty typical of the many hundreds of parents I’ve been in contact with over the past 4 years and here’s what happened to us at George Watson’s College:

  • I provided a mountain of information (research, detransitioner stories, clinician perspectives etc)
  • I offered to pay for the school to have a session with one of the Tavistock whistleblowers so they could hear the concerns which LGBT Youth Scotland (the school is a LGBTYS Gold Award holder) dismiss. This offer was ignored.
  • I invited the Head of support services to a private talk one of the Tavistock whistleblowers was giving. This was ignored.
  • The Head of Guidance and Year Head (who had told me he would not consider the clinical advice we had to not support our daughter’s social transition) attended a session at the Scottish Parliament where Dr David Bell was speaking after I told them II had been invited to speak from the floor

They took all of this information and then unbeknownst to me, incorporated into their schools guidance as not representing “the views of or approach taken by George Watson’s College.”

(The link in the screenshot goes to this: https://www.transgendertrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Current-Evidence-in-the-Treatment-of-Gender-Dysphoric-Children-and-Young-People.pdf )

Dr Bell spoke on Channel 4 News last night. This is what Watson’s explicitly dismissed (and probably still do as): https://www.channel4.com/news/school-transgender-guidance-very-progressive-claims-dr-david-bell

I now know that my daughter’s teachers had no idea of the extent of what was going on behind the scenes. All they were told was that my daughter identified as a boy, it was to be supported but that her parents did not support it.

Now replicate this up and down the country (well, not the Scottish Parliament bit). Many many schools knew what the concerns were. They chose to ignore all of this in favour of listening to lobby groups. In the meantime, we parents were dismissed and undermined. You can’t blame any of that on a lack of Govt guidance.

The entrenchment of the ideology is frightening. Not 'here is an article about children and gender' but 'here is an article about how some stupid parents don't believe in GI, stupid bigots that they are, good job we know better than them'. Fucking hell.

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 09:57

And yet the basic assumption has been than trans people get access to services for the opposite sex and that an exemption needs to be asserted. Otherwise we wouldn't have ended up with a fight to get men out of women's prisons or hospital wards or sports competitions or changing rooms.

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 09:59

The other thing I'm very interested in with all this from a legal point of view is the difference between schools. My Dd's secondary has single sex toilets and always had; there are third spaces for the tiny group of trans children. They share all PHSE / RSE materials used each week with parents and have at least for the last 2 years. Parents and children in schools that don't have these safeguards are surely being discriminated against compared to me and my daughter? They are experiencing a very different educational system and in some cases being forced to go along with a highly contested and unscientific ideology.

Education provision is very patchy in very many different ways across the country.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/12/2023 09:59

I do hope that those arguing in favour of teachers transitioning children in secret from their parents and insisting that it's not possible for schools to retain single sex spaces and sport take note of rogdmum's post above. The lengths that trans captured individuals in schools can go to in their attempts to exclude parents from their children's lives are both extreme and very sinister.

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 10:01

I don't think anyone is arguing in favour of that here?

pronounsbundlebundle · 20/12/2023 10:02

I'm so sorry @rogdmum that is horrendous - a clear safeguarding failure to explicitly go against both parental and medical advice.

There needs to start to be serious legal consequences for teachers pushing this in this way.

There will be plenty of parents who don't have the resilience to fight the school transitioning their child so will be completely steamrollered by captured SLT like this. But the teachers pushing it won't be there for that child in 10 years when the consequences are fully starting to be known.

And this would not - categorically not - have happened in my DDs secondary school.

rogdmum · 20/12/2023 10:03

And also worth noting that the Principal of George Watson’s College was the Chair of HMC, one of the big U.K. wide independent school organisations. He is highly influential. He is currently the Vice Chair of HMC.

He arranged for former Mermaids Trustee, Bobbi Pickard to speak at HMC’s Spring Conference earlier this year:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/04/mermaids-trans-advice-private-school-headteachers-uk/

Gender ideology is deeply embedded

Former Mermaids trustee gives trans advice to private school headteachers

Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference held a closed event where activist Bobbi Pickard gave a speech titled ‘The Gift of Trans’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/04/mermaids-trans-advice-private-school-headteachers-uk/

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/12/2023 10:07

There are lots of schools who have resisted this nonsense as I pointed out earlier. They all have confident leaders with a good understanding of safeguarding and mental health problems in teenagers. They skilfully centre children's needs and rights and I know have seen off proposed LGBTetc groups, dodgy SRE materials and turned down requests from trans groups wanting to sell their born in the wrong body narrative. They're all Ofsted good or outstanding schools. It can be done.

noblegiraffe · 20/12/2023 10:07

Ah so this was a private school in Scotland? This guidance won't help then as it only applies to state schools in England. Scotland appears to have gone genuinely batshit.