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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It's started in Irish dancing too. 14 year old trans child wins world qualifying event

163 replies

Greyheart1 · 11/12/2023 23:32

https://tennesseestar.com/news/parents-outraged-after-trans-identifying-boy-wins-girls-irish-dancing-competition-heads-to-worlds/admin/2023/12/10/

This means that the girl outside the qualifying spots in the U14 competition has missed out on her chance to dance at the world championships next year.
Devestating. It is an extremely expensive sport.

Parents Outraged After Trans-Identifying Boy Wins Girls' Irish Dancing Competition, Heads to Worlds - Tennessee Star

A teenage boy who identifies as a girl is heading to the Irish Dancing World Championships after placing first in the U14 2023 Southern Region Oireachtas competitions.

https://tennesseestar.com/news/parents-outraged-after-trans-identifying-boy-wins-girls-irish-dancing-competition-heads-to-worlds/admin/2023/12/10

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ElaineMBenes · 12/12/2023 22:05

ResisterRex · 12/12/2023 21:09

"Girls do in their heavy shoes - they're known as blocks. They're allowed to dance this step aged 12 upwards.
It's not a step danced by boys."

@ElaineMBenes why is going on pointe more risky for males? Or have I misunderstood?

I didn't say it was.... another poster suggested that.

I responded saying that point work - or blocks as we call it, is a step typically danced by female dancers. It's generally a stylistic thing rather than anything to do with anatomy. Girls will do quite intricate block work whereas boys don't tend to.

You don't get taught anything to do with anatomy when you do your teaching exams!! Which is an issue in itself I think as the sport develops.

ResisterRex · 12/12/2023 22:23

Thank you, I saw it was a response but I wasn't sure if there was another layer to it. On my internet travels (trying to see what there is on the impact on the body), I think I saw that block work is somehow a bit more dangerous than it is in ballet (something to do with the type of movement?). But I was just interested to know!

I'd have thought anatomy would be part of teaching too. Just seems logical.

Thank you and sorry as I know that was a slight derail Blush

ElaineMBenes · 12/12/2023 22:36

ResisterRex · 12/12/2023 22:23

Thank you, I saw it was a response but I wasn't sure if there was another layer to it. On my internet travels (trying to see what there is on the impact on the body), I think I saw that block work is somehow a bit more dangerous than it is in ballet (something to do with the type of movement?). But I was just interested to know!

I'd have thought anatomy would be part of teaching too. Just seems logical.

Thank you and sorry as I know that was a slight derail Blush

No worries at all!
The teaching exams are pretty ridiculous imo.
You get no training, you rely on your own dance teacher and your own studies.

It includes nothing on anatomy, fitness, biology etc but you are expected to know all 30 ceili dances off by heart despite the vast majority of teachers never actually teaching ceili and if you do, you just refer to your book 🤷🏼‍♀️

Oh and I can identify every piece of set dance music and 'lilt' a reel 😂

You do 5 exams in one weekend and you need to get 70% or above in every exam to pass. If you get less than 50% in one exam then you have to resit all 5! If you ever plan on teaching in Ireland then there is also an Irish language exam.

Total de-rail but it was the most stressful thing I've ever done and I have a PhD 😂😂😂

NitroNine · 12/12/2023 22:42

@Greyheart1
Sorry, I maybe wasn’t clear earlier: WIDA haven’t a trans category; they’ve had a female person who identifies as “trans non-binary” dance (& win) in the women’s category. While said individual has apparently made big claims about being told they were allowed to do whatever made them most comfortable, as I said earlier, I’ve not been able to find anything from WIDA on the subject; & normally if an organisation lets you participate according to genderfeels, they proudly announce that. A governing body for sport that’s big in Ireland, Australia, Canada & the US would have reason to be sotto voce about believing in reality & women & girls having the right not to be trampled over by boys & men.

As I said earlier, a trans category - which seems the obvious answer, I know - won’t work. World Aquatics had to cancel their trans category at the Swimming World Cup this year because they got no entrants. There will be claims it is “outing” of course (vanishingly unlikely); but the reality is that it isn’t “validating” not to be allowed an unfair advantage. (Saying that, it should be noted there is a female dancer in Australia who identifies as male & now dances in the male category. Said individual’s writing makes it clear they wouldn’t want to dance in a trans category because they are so desperate to be seen & understood as male by others.)

Grammarnut · 12/12/2023 22:58

WishIMite · 12/12/2023 07:53

Hmm Irish dancing looks like drag anyway to me… makes me a bit uncomfortable tbh. Not surprising it attracts people who might otherwise do drag…!

One of my step-granddaughters does Irish dancing (in Ireland) and wears a kilt, as do all the dancers. Seems more sensible.
A boy winning a girls' competition is outrageous. As ever, inclusivity means excluding girls and women from their sports, and the governing body needs to change its unfair rules now.

NitroNine · 12/12/2023 22:58

@ElaineMBenes

That is… 😵‍💫
Though Dance Anatomy & Kineseology is a bit of a beast, it’s such important stuff it’s a bit mad teacher training bodies are all “sure you’ll be grand without that - but the ceilis are non-negotiable!”. And knowing how to deal with hyper-mobile dancers so they gain strength & proprioception & injury is minimised really matters - especially if it’s a style that involves anything like pointe work; & presumably sitting in/locking in sways can be an issue in Irish dancing too? (Sorry, am just boggled.)

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 00:05

NitroNine · 12/12/2023 22:42

@Greyheart1
Sorry, I maybe wasn’t clear earlier: WIDA haven’t a trans category; they’ve had a female person who identifies as “trans non-binary” dance (& win) in the women’s category. While said individual has apparently made big claims about being told they were allowed to do whatever made them most comfortable, as I said earlier, I’ve not been able to find anything from WIDA on the subject; & normally if an organisation lets you participate according to genderfeels, they proudly announce that. A governing body for sport that’s big in Ireland, Australia, Canada & the US would have reason to be sotto voce about believing in reality & women & girls having the right not to be trampled over by boys & men.

As I said earlier, a trans category - which seems the obvious answer, I know - won’t work. World Aquatics had to cancel their trans category at the Swimming World Cup this year because they got no entrants. There will be claims it is “outing” of course (vanishingly unlikely); but the reality is that it isn’t “validating” not to be allowed an unfair advantage. (Saying that, it should be noted there is a female dancer in Australia who identifies as male & now dances in the male category. Said individual’s writing makes it clear they wouldn’t want to dance in a trans category because they are so desperate to be seen & understood as male by others.)

Thanks for clarifying re wida.
In response to the dancer down under it really should be there is a trans catagory or you can dance under your birth gender with your chosen name & attire but unfortunately you were not born female so you cannot compete in the ladies event.
It's up to the organisations CLRG or wida to own it. Or else expect boycotts. Go Woke go broke.

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EtiennePalmiere · 13/12/2023 00:23

ResisterRex · 12/12/2023 22:23

Thank you, I saw it was a response but I wasn't sure if there was another layer to it. On my internet travels (trying to see what there is on the impact on the body), I think I saw that block work is somehow a bit more dangerous than it is in ballet (something to do with the type of movement?). But I was just interested to know!

I'd have thought anatomy would be part of teaching too. Just seems logical.

Thank you and sorry as I know that was a slight derail Blush

In ballet men don't generally do pointe because they're heavier and it's therefore dangerous (and more painful). If they do it's pretty modified. In this case then a male might have lady feelings and compete as a woman, which has the usual problems for us in addition to hurting him physically.

To your other question I think Irish pointe might have less padding/harder shoes which might make it more dangerous.

Sorry for the derail ! Just shows how bad this is for everyone, I was honestly shocked.

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 00:30

@EtiennePalmiere to compete with the top girls intricate toework is an absolute necissity. How will health & safety work here? Insurance? Male Irish dancers do not do toes due to the risks mentioned above.

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EtiennePalmiere · 13/12/2023 00:39

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 00:30

@EtiennePalmiere to compete with the top girls intricate toework is an absolute necissity. How will health & safety work here? Insurance? Male Irish dancers do not do toes due to the risks mentioned above.

There's no problem for girls ! It's just not healthy for "girls" imo

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 01:00

Yes no problem for the girls but surely it's very dangerous & verging on h&s violations if the boys competing with the girls attempt toes?
But for the girls absolutely toe work is an essential part of intricate footwook. For a boy with obviously a very different centre of gravity & a completely different bodily make up it could lead to severe injury trying to emulate the girls which is essential when trying to compete with the girls?

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EtiennePalmiere · 13/12/2023 02:12

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying, barring h&s rules, I wouldn't know anything official about that.

NitroNine · 13/12/2023 02:26

@Greyheart1
The dancer in Australia is female - I highlighted them as they are one of the less usual cases where it’s not a male muscling into the female category for an easy win. The business of “validation” is still an unacceptable demand though: humans cannot change sex & the divisions are sex-based, nothing to do with gender (though one might reasonably argue the typical costume requirements for said divisions are highly gendered; as we’ve seen on this thread how far that’s the case varies hugely & further is an issue to be addressed without any suggestion that girls who don’t fancy dancing in mad frocks must be boys).

@EtiennePalmiere so you’re not with Pointe Magazine &/or a big fan of Chase Johnsey or indeed The Trocks? 🤣 I think Bennett’s being pretty harsh on himself (tbf, the man has zero ego) when he talks about “just hoofing around” as Bottom (zero ego but shameless with the puns) in this 2020 “Dance Spirit” article about men doing pointe - & I think it’s become even more common since that was written. Wayne McGregor’s weird “Carbon Life” has lots of male pointe work in - but that really WAS hoofing about. Ed Watson’s got quite into pointe, I think - it’s that thing about perfectionists being driven to learn. Even some (serious, as it were) male recreational dancers learn pointe - for strength, to improve technique, & to improve their partnering (as well as for the sheer joy of it). Men - with all their extra fast twitch muscles - might find some female rep easier: bloody bastard cygnets being an obvious example…

Frankly men in women’s roles in classical ballet is absolute bollocks: classical ballet demands a certain aesthetic & while you might say it shouldn’t &/or it’s unfair & God knows it causes all kinds of problems - the fact remains it is the case & either that body shape & size is acceptable or it’s not. No “as you have special genderfeels you are allowed to take a space for which the levels of competition are INSANE despite not meeting the aesthetic or technique requirements”. Tamara Rojo was treated truly abysmally by Derek Deane when she danced with ENB (she put on enough weight to not die from the anorexia nervosa she’d developed after joining the Company & - knowing this - he told her she’d got fat & had to lose weight) so I wonder if she’s been fed (Chase Johnsey dancing with ENB happened on her watch) a Wrong Body narrative & felt sorry for him. She also knows a TW personally through work who is very sweet, & which will probably cloud things.

BalletWorld has of course had that massive confusion over your one who’s been doing some RAD exams & prancing about in tutus & people got the wrong end of the stick thinking they’d somehow got a place at the RBS or similar 🤦‍♀️ Frankly it was daft of the RAD to promote them & if the great eejit was really after “passing” &/or being treated like everyone else they’d not have wanted their picture in the paper talking about being a TW in a tutu. Years ago a TW joined a recreational ballet class I did. It was far FAR too hard for her but she wouldn’t have it. She’d transitioned after the death of her spouse (well, she said they were dead 🤷‍♀️) & retiring & was clearly wealthy so built a home ballet studio; paid for private classes; booked into any summer course that would take her; & travelled down to London for class several days a week. She also had dozens of tutus that all cost hundreds of pounds. She clearly thought doing ballet would somehow confer femininity - when you’re built like a brick shithouse, squeezing yourself into a thin-strapped leotard that strains over your overlarge fake breasts & adding a practice skirt that, lacking sufficient fabric for your circumference, gapes at the front, is anything but feminine. Even if you trowel on the make-up. (Our teacher thought the skirt thing might have been - consciously or otherwise - to show that they were “a woman”; not realising that women aren’t going to go “oh, no penis, my mistake”). She was so disastrously bad - & incredibly arrogant - that my teacher wouldn’t allow us to be in the same group (of 2 or 3) crossing the studio because she was afraid I’d get badly injured. You do get people of both sexes who fancy themselves much better dancers than is the case; & people who are a hazard to shipping ditto - but thinking you are a dainty fairy ballerina not a dumpy fat bloke was a new one on me.

Delphinium20 · 13/12/2023 03:18

The sheet entitlement of these parents who think their little princes can stomp on girls' opportunities and erode their boundaries. So many nameless girls who've missed their rightful spots.

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 07:04

@Delphinium20 it is awful. A stand needs to be taken against all organisations who allow, enable & encourage this. Bud light, Nike etc are examples on a larger scale. Look at Lia Thomas in America, he's finally backed down as no one wants him on their team..

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ResisterRex · 13/12/2023 07:36

@ElaineMBenes thank you for your reply and contributions to this thread, which are quite the insight!! It does sound seriously intense and like it has some major gaps that need filling.

@EtiennePalmiere thanks also for the ballet element. Also the difference in shoes and so on. Loads to think about!

This is why I like FWR. You get a topic which does belong here but you don't know much about it, but then you get to learn so much around the topic, with links and so on to go off looking at.

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Alltheprettyseahorses · 13/12/2023 07:51

Did the child win through talent or for being trans? At the risk of sounding harsh, there have been many occasions where being trans has been the major factor in competition success when the girls or women are clearly better, including judges feeling pity, being patronising or fishing for woke cookies.

Boomboom22 · 13/12/2023 09:00

That Australia article is shocking in how selfish the nb woman is. She genuinely believes the world owes her what sound like sexual thrills by seeing her as male, gender euphoria sounds like a paraphilia to me more and more not just Malaga airport but all of it.
Where do they get the idea that 'cis' people are just fine and happy with themselves anyway? They can't see past the end of their own nose that everyone has a personality and their own struggles and issues, this euphoric sense of self and sex they imagine doesn't exist for anyone.

Boomboom22 · 13/12/2023 09:02

Reminds me of the trans poster this summer who just could not accept their inner feels didn't make them a woman. Spewing stereotypes and offending everyone whilst maintaining their fixed view.

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 09:19

@Alltheprettyseahorses@Alltheprettyseahorses I'm not sure but I'd imagine it's quite possible that if the judges didn't give a trans competitor top marks & judges as it sees fit the judge could easily be called transphobic so this needs to be looked at too.
The parents & dancing teachers who are taking a stand against a boy competing in the girls category were immediately labelled transphobic.

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ElaineMBenes · 13/12/2023 09:29

Alltheprettyseahorses · 13/12/2023 07:51

Did the child win through talent or for being trans? At the risk of sounding harsh, there have been many occasions where being trans has been the major factor in competition success when the girls or women are clearly better, including judges feeling pity, being patronising or fishing for woke cookies.

Really good point and very hard to prove as judging is very subjective in irish dancing and already comes under a lot of scrutiny due to allegations of cheating - which has been going on for YEARS!!! I was competing 30 years ago and everyone knew it was going on then.

The dancer being discussed her is clearly a very good dancer - to come 11th in the world is a pretty big achievement but they just missed out on a world medal and I wonder if that has influenced their decision to try their luck in the girls comp?
However, as already discussed they will need to change their entire style of dancing which won't be easy.

Greyheart1 · 13/12/2023 09:33

@ElaineMBenes from looking at the schools social media it appears there was two U14 boys in the school, the other boy always won with the child in question runner up to the boy which may also have influenced the decision to infiltrate the girls competition🤷‍♀️

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ElaineMBenes · 13/12/2023 09:34

@Greyheart1 I saw that. The other U14 places highly at the worlds too so is clearly a better dancer.......

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