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Original poster

Fewer than five trans prisoners still in female jails

31 replies

IwantToRetire · 04/12/2023 01:25

Fewer than five transgender women are being held in female jails after a major transfer programme in the wake of the <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/YG8Er/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/02/transgender-rapist-isla-bryson-prison-transphobic-abuse/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Isla Bryson scandal.

Around 10 transgender women are believed to have been deemed potential security risks and <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/YG8Er/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/16/trans-prisoners-moved-out-womens-jails-isla-bryson-moj/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">moved out of women’s jails following a tightening of the rules in prisons in England and Wales.

The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) imposed a retrospective ban on transgender prisoners with male genitalia or with a conviction for violent or sexual offences to be held in women’s prisons.

It was introduced by the then justice secretary, Dominic Raab, after Bryson, a transgender woman found guilty of raping two women before she transitioned, was sent to Cornton Vale, an all-female prison.

The <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/YG8Er/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/01/16/rishi-sunak-strikes-nurses-news-latest-keir-starmer-brexit/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">subsequent outcry forced the Scottish Government to reverse the policy and led to a review of the rules south of the border.

According to new MoJ data, the number of transgender women in female jails has fallen to between zero and five, excluding those in possession of a gender recognition certificate. The MoJ refuses to be more precise because of the risk of identifying individuals.

Full article at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/03/most-trans-prisoners-no-longer-in-female-jails/ or https://archive.ph/YG8Er

Fewer than five trans prisoners still in female jails

Isla Bryson scandal in Scotland prompts Ministry of Justice to tighten rules in prisons in England and Wales

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/03/most-trans-prisoners-no-longer-in-female-jails

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2023 01:29

It was introduced by the then justice secretary, Dominic Raab, after Bryson, a transgender woman found guilty of raping two women before she transitioned, was sent to Cornton Vale, an all-female prison.

And it was largely thanks to the work of Keep Prisons Single Sex, and Dr Kate Coleman, its director.

miri1985 · 04/12/2023 03:25

I'm glad its happened but surely this should have taken place in 2017 after Karen White. That seems to have really been swept under a rug

MrsJamin · 04/12/2023 03:31

It's definitely progress but there should be no men in women's prisons. I hope there are plans to move the rest.

PriOn1 · 04/12/2023 04:30

There shouldn’t be any, including those with a falsified birth certificate. Can’t wait for this madness to end. Surely it has to, one day.

Hearmenow23 · 04/12/2023 04:59

I thought they didn't know the numbers as they didn't record the data.

HagoftheNorth · 04/12/2023 06:02

I guess that includes Katie Dolatowski, who, it seems, was released because it was too difficult to find a place to detain him.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4731689-katie-dolatowski-released

I wonder if this has also happened with other male sex offenders? Huge thankyou to KPSS, and I won’t be truly celebrating until they are happy!

Katie Dolatowski Released?? | Mumsnet

I saw someone on Twitter say that Katie Dolatowski his been released from Corton Vale. Does anyone know if this is true? I did an online search and f...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4731689-katie-dolatowski-released

Hoardasurass · 04/12/2023 06:04

That figure does not include Scotland.

Circumferences · 04/12/2023 06:30

Well it's good news but bad news because that madness should never have happened in the first place.
I presume future TW criminals will be sent to the men's prison then?

Soontobe60 · 04/12/2023 06:41

As far as I’m concerned, a transgender woman is a female who wishes to be considered a man.
A man who wishes to be considered a woman is a transwoman.
The words we use are very important to ensure there is no confusion. Someone reading the article may well think the same - and question why women who wish to be considered men are sent to the men’s prison estate.

EdgeOfACoin · 04/12/2023 06:44

According to new MoJ data, the number of transgender women in female jails has fallen to between zero and five, excluding those in possession of a gender recognition certificate

So a piece of paper makes all of the potential issues magically disappear.

Waitwhat23 · 04/12/2023 07:09

Hoardasurass · 04/12/2023 06:04

That figure does not include Scotland.

Correct and the SPS simply refuse to say how many males are in the female prison estate in Scotland.

Boiledbeetle · 04/12/2023 07:18

"The MoJ says exceptions will be considered only when evidence demonstrates the highest degree of confidence in a low level of risk to female offenders. Exceptions must be signed off by the Secretary of State for Justice."

Annoying last couple of sentences! Having a high degree of confidence in a low level risk is still not good enough.

Men no matter their risk level or the fact they may have a GRC should still be in the women's prison estate.

RebelliousCow · 04/12/2023 07:26

Soontobe60 · 04/12/2023 06:41

As far as I’m concerned, a transgender woman is a female who wishes to be considered a man.
A man who wishes to be considered a woman is a transwoman.
The words we use are very important to ensure there is no confusion. Someone reading the article may well think the same - and question why women who wish to be considered men are sent to the men’s prison estate.

Personally find it far clearer to talk about 'trans identified men' and 'trans identified women'. It puts the emphaisis on the 'identity' part of the equation whilst preserving and making the clear the reality of sex.

There really is no such thing as 'someone in the wrong body' - no matter how they feel; and as such there is no such thing as being 'genuinely' trans. All is about feelings and self perception; but self perception is not the exact same thing as reality.

ArthurbellaScott · 04/12/2023 07:26

Waitwhat23 · 04/12/2023 07:09

Correct and the SPS simply refuse to say how many males are in the female prison estate in Scotland.

Show quote history

Scotland continues to lead the way in protecting and pandering to men and their sexual desire.

RebelliousCow · 04/12/2023 07:28

ArthurbellaScott · 04/12/2023 07:26

Scotland continues to lead the way in protecting and pandering to men and their sexual desire.

Show quote history

One clear result of wokeists and self imagined progressives being landed with results the exact opposite of that which they proclaim to support.

ArthurbellaScott · 04/12/2023 07:31

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420

From early this year, when Scotland already had more men in women's prisons than England and Wales combined. Links to SPS data from last year.

Adam Graham

Isla Bryson: What is the transgender prisoners row all about?

There were concerns about the safety of women held alongside trans women prisoners in female jails.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420

DarkDayforMN · 04/12/2023 10:02

EdgeOfACoin · 04/12/2023 06:44

According to new MoJ data, the number of transgender women in female jails has fallen to between zero and five, excluding those in possession of a gender recognition certificate

So a piece of paper makes all of the potential issues magically disappear.

I would like to know how many GRCs are issued to men in prison.

Igmum · 05/12/2023 08:51

Agree. There should be no men in women's spaces regardless of GRC. If TW are in danger in men's prisons they should be protected but women and women prisoners are not support humans. They deserve safe, single sex spaces.

Chersfrozenface · 05/12/2023 09:02

The new Scottish guidelines are covered in this BBC News story, datelined today
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67613441

Figures:
"The latest figures show there were 23 trans prisoners in Scotland from January to March this year.
They included 19 trans women, seven of whom were in a women's prison, and four trans men - one of whom was in a male prison."

Re risk:
"Under the new policy - which will come into force in February 2024 - a trans woman would not be allowed to move into the female estate if they had been convicted of, or were on remand awaiting trial for, a crime that harmed a female - unless there was "compelling evidence that they did not present an unacceptable risk of harm to those in the women's prison"."

happydappy2 · 05/12/2023 09:07

I'm not convinced there are any safeguards in place to prevent a violent male in prison, from applying for a GRC and getting one. The GRA must be repealed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2023 09:17

a trans woman would not be allowed to move into the female estate if they had been convicted of, or were on remand awaiting trial for, a crime that harmed a female

So does sex matter or not, Scotland?

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 09:58

Chersfrozenface · 05/12/2023 09:02

The new Scottish guidelines are covered in this BBC News story, datelined today
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67613441

Figures:
"The latest figures show there were 23 trans prisoners in Scotland from January to March this year.
They included 19 trans women, seven of whom were in a women's prison, and four trans men - one of whom was in a male prison."

Re risk:
"Under the new policy - which will come into force in February 2024 - a trans woman would not be allowed to move into the female estate if they had been convicted of, or were on remand awaiting trial for, a crime that harmed a female - unless there was "compelling evidence that they did not present an unacceptable risk of harm to those in the women's prison"."

Steadfastly ignoring that the presence of a male in a women's prison will be harming females.

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 10:00

As Lucy Hunter Blackman spells out here:

'Lucy Hunter Blackman, from policy analysts Murray Blackburn Mackenzie, said any new policy in Scotland should not "talk narrowly about the potential risk of a physical or sexual assault".
She added: "It needs to recognise how the presence of someone male might impact upon group of vulnerable traumatised women, held in spaces from which they cannot escape."'

Signalbox · 05/12/2023 10:05

EdgeOfACoin · 04/12/2023 06:44

According to new MoJ data, the number of transgender women in female jails has fallen to between zero and five, excluding those in possession of a gender recognition certificate

So a piece of paper makes all of the potential issues magically disappear.

And we’re supposed to believe a GRC is “just admin”.