Sandi Toksvig "doesn't get it", poor love....

[HootyMcBooby]

Sandi Toksvig slams anti-trans bigots ‘claiming to be radical feminists’ (msn.com)

"I could weep. I don’t get it. It’s beyond me"

Yeah Sandi, I don't get it either.
How is it possible that men can say they are women and have unfettered access to females in their safe spaces?
How is it possible that we are medicating children against puberty?
How it is possible that a woman can be raped on a female hospital ward by a man claiming to be a woman and then gaslighted to be told a man was not on the ward?
How is it possible that men are claiming titles, sponsorships and medals in women's sports?
How is it possible women and females are being literally erased from so many spheres of life, including health/medicine and marketing campaigns? How come the same isn't happening to males?

As a lesbian do you like "lady penis"?
Or do you actually know that men remain men whatever surgeries they may have had, and are just on the "be kind" train?

Have you even THOUGHT about the issues this ideology ushers in?

Actually you don't need to answer that.
It's obvious.

If the TRAs were just calmly (like the people on this thread) disagreeing with people and saying they thought their opinions were wrong, things would not be in the mess that they are. In reality they are physically attacking people, sending violent, explicit threats and using their male privilege to deny access to public spaces. So no, not at all in the same vein.

Sandi Toksvig will run into instant trouble if she ever has to answer even one question about her sexual orientation. Or defend it in any way.

Does she agree with stonewall that lesbians are sexual racists?

I'd have to assume, no. No normal person does.

So why the devil is she wading into it? One can only assume that she doesn't have a clue about transactivism.

And if she's a guardian reader, none of them do!

I don't think she realises that the water she's about to dip her toe in, is full of sharks

And I predict that she's about to get a massive shock.

I too am very interested in seeing the evidence that supports this rather wild claim.

What independent polling was done? Who reported it? Where can we see the data?

Or is it just some poster making generalisations based on nothing? I am looking forward to seeing this evidence though. That would be very enlightening.

Yes, Yes it is the same thing. Some people are just too blinkered to see it. Sandi is an absolute legend. A true feminist and radical. I've admired her for years and continue to do so.

For the scolders on this thread, women are allowed to be angry and disappointed by Sandi’s comments. Sandi’s comments add fuel to the fire. They validate the TRA position that gender-critical women, who have valid concerns over the erosion of their rights, are somehow hateful bigots.

Every time the GC position is criticised by a respected celebrity, the world becomes a little bit less safe for women and their rights. With her “kind” words of solidarity, Sandi is unwittingly helping to empower men who think it’s ok to scream at and threaten women for daring to want to preserve female single-sex spaces and sports.

Granted, there are horrible far-right bigots out there who are no doubt anti-trans and probably anti everything else too. Those far-right bigots should not be confused with GC feminists, many of whom are left-leaning. JK Rowling supported the Labour Party during Gordon Brown’s leadership.

How utterly unsurprising that you should not care about her attitude to breastfeeding mothers, Mishy.

It aligns with the pattern that some trans-identifying males may identify as women, but they never identify with women.

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with. Much of the younger generation are very fluid in sexuality. But it is the individual's choice. This whole garbage that lesbians will be forced to sleep with a penis. Complete and utter rubbish.

Most of my girlfriends are attracted to the female form. Some would date a trans woman some would not. It's completely their choice and doesn't invalidate their identities. Makes me laugh.

Go to a club like She in Soho. You will find a very proud, no T*RFs served here sign. And there are older and younger lesbians alike - and even the odd transwoman when you can identify them, or they may just be fluid. You know what? I don't really care. I just love people enjoying themselves without fear and bigotry. Yay.

I never mentioned breast feeding. Dont put words into my mouth to try and sideline my points. Attempt level -1. ;)

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with

What?

Yes, Yes it is the same thing. Some people are just too blinkered to see it. Sandi is an absolute legend. A true feminist and radical. I've admired her for years and continue to do so.

Nope. There is nothing remotely feminist or radical about Sandi or any woman who prioritises males over females, excludes females from services and spaces that should include them.

With trans-activism in general, if someone is irrationally sticking to a position, demonising others that disagree, and promoting something that is arguably harmful in various ways, that is a good case for someone being a "bigot".

The trans debate is different because (1) people are making radical new identity claims, and (2) they are trying to claim "rights" on a radical new basis.

Even if you can make some sort of parallel, there are going to be ways that it is way different to the debates over homosexuality.

I think you have already said that it may be fair, in theory, to call Sandy a bigot, but you disagree that this is actually the case.

I would say that there is a strong case that trans-activists are bigots on the grounds of them being irrational, having closed minds, being intolerant of others, and demonising the opposition. Hopefully Sandy doesn't fall into that.

How welcome are transmen in the gay clubs of Soho?

No, you didn't mention breastfeeding.

That is, indeed, my point.

The thread has discussed her attitude to breastfeeding and you have popped up to tell us that in your opinion she is "[a] true feminist and radical". Therefore you do not see her breastfeeding comments as important.

So, did I notice that being called a bigot now is being dismissed as a very mild insult compared to expressing disappointment in someone who has positioned themselves to be of political influence with their very own political party and querying that person’s intelligence and motivation?

Well, there you go. I guess that would be about right because some posters do quickly resort to making abusive accusations and then declaring victimhood. There does seem to be a pattern I have noticed over the years. Those few people who downplay calling people bigots, transphobes, racists, child abusers and a slew of other serious insults never recognise the lack of symmetry of their own behaviour when they then claim to be bullied and claim victimhood for people merely pointing out inconsistencies and flaws in their arguments.

At least it is then consistent to dismiss bigotry as being less of an insult to women saying questioning motives and the lack of thought behind a political leader’s statements.

I believe it is consistent too with a few posters who dismiss violence against women when it is violence against women who they don’t agree with. through various means, but one in particular comes to mind, such as telling us we are racist because we are discussing a small women’s group being attacked instead of say, a woman of colour being murdered. That is amongst other accusations that I am sure I am not the only person on FWR to remember. It is consistent behaviour at least.

So, no evidence then?

Well, we all know you are living the evidence free life Mishy so no surprise there.

This whole line of argument from GC people is particularly problematic.

The 'gotcha' is always 'oh you think trans women are women? would you have sex with them?! would you?!'

It's deeply misogynistic in its underlying premise that the test of womanhood is whether people who are ordinarily attracted to women will have sex with you or not.

And deeply homophobic in immediately running towards sex lives whenever lesbians have a view on trans people that doesn't accord with their own.

Not RTFT but I’m pretty sure that at least one of Sandi’s children may be having an influence here, not because they themselves are trans-identified but rather that they move in those circles.

Not the first mother of twenty-somethings to be captured in this way.

Maybe you should actually read the thread then. Sandi’s attitude towards breastfeeding is hardly feminist.

@MishyJDI

Lols. No-one forces people on who they choose to have sex with.

So no one gets banned or harassed on lesbian dating sites if they say, "biological females only"?

Oh, I see. I thought Mishy was claiming rape never happened. But it wasn't very clear.

If you want to criticise the CofE it might be better to understand their position(s) first. The CofE accepts the law, that gay couples can get married under the law - a civil marriage. The CofE is split on whether the marriage of a gay couple is valid as a religious ceremony, with the implication that God approves, and is trying to avoid a split over this issue. Hence the fudged position currently, permitting the blessing of a civil marriage but not permitting a marriage ceremony in church.

I would hate to have to choose between one side of such a split or the other, as I would agree with one side over some issues and with the other over some issues. It’s similar to voting, where there is no political party that I am happy with on all policy positions. Just as I am left wing in some respects, and right wing in others, I am theologically conservative in some respects and theologically liberal in others - and I sometimes switch positions when faced with evidence and arguments which I find convincing, or when I have sufficient doubt that my previous understanding was correct. So being a member of the CofE is often uncomfortable, precisely because its position is not fixed in stone. And according to some [TRAs, for example], I am bigoted, because I do not subscribe to their position but am open to persuasion!

And Porcelina, it seems that no one gets female only lesbian dating events cancelled, or protested.

I know, I could practically hear the collective eye roll because that poster is consistently clueless. And clueless about their cluelessness.

I know the word embarrassing often gets over used, but it truly is, watching that person trying to invoke the youth, women, lesbians, the lot. When it's perfectly clear they never have any dealings with any of them.

Helen Joyce has now shared that screenshot of Sandi saying ‘No dyke needs a penis’ and it’s spreading quite nicely so I’m sure she’ll be called to account for it at some point.

It never is.