Sandi Toksvig "doesn't get it", poor love....

[HootyMcBooby]

Sandi Toksvig slams anti-trans bigots ‘claiming to be radical feminists’ (msn.com)

"I could weep. I don’t get it. It’s beyond me"

Yeah Sandi, I don't get it either.
How is it possible that men can say they are women and have unfettered access to females in their safe spaces?
How is it possible that we are medicating children against puberty?
How it is possible that a woman can be raped on a female hospital ward by a man claiming to be a woman and then gaslighted to be told a man was not on the ward?
How is it possible that men are claiming titles, sponsorships and medals in women's sports?
How is it possible women and females are being literally erased from so many spheres of life, including health/medicine and marketing campaigns? How come the same isn't happening to males?

As a lesbian do you like "lady penis"?
Or do you actually know that men remain men whatever surgeries they may have had, and are just on the "be kind" train?

Have you even THOUGHT about the issues this ideology ushers in?

Actually you don't need to answer that.
It's obvious.

Peas and Queues

https://www.waterstones.com/book/peas-and-queues/sandi-toksvig/9781781250334

Choosing to lock women in with rapists is much, much worse than simply happening to be born (like 50% of the population) with below-average intelligence.

Clear enough?

Well, she's raising money here for Stonewall, so ...

'I am delighted to be hosting The London Gay Men's Chorus at Cadogan Hall tomorrow Saturday 25 November - it promises to be a glorious evening supporting the incredible charity Stonewall Housing'

https://twitter.com/sanditoksvig/status/1728019764109361594

You think it's 'hard right' to criticise centrism? How so?

I'm a centrist and probably always will be. But the centre is not morally neutral. Sometimes the centre is actively harmful, as in instances where they try to suggest a 'middle ground' between 'oppression' and 'not oppression'.

I mean if you want to argue the toss about whether opposing the right of gay couples to marry is bigoted or not, go right ahead.

I think it is self-evidently bigoted.

Didn't quite a lot of Stonewall oppose the right to marriage between same-sex couples? It was an interesting debate at the time.

No, she's not raising money for Stonewall (not that that would be terribly surprising if she, like the majority of lesbians, doesn't buy in to anti-trans thinking).

She's raising money for Stonewall Housing.

It's right there in the text you quoted.

I started listening to this, if anyone's interested, that touches on the history of it and why gay people opposed it, and goes on to gender (need to finish it!)

I agree, btw, that same- sex couples should have the right to marry, of course. I also agree that Stonewall are bigoted.

They did actually deem that subject worthy of debate at the time, at least. I wonder if things would be different if their stance was "marriage is heteronormative, no debate"?

Presumably you would say that the Christians are wrong in their moral views, and causing harm?

So with someone like Sandy, can we not say that they have an irrational viewpoint that is causing harm?

Can we say that Sandy is a "bigot" or whatever else? Would that not be fair?

Did they?

Or did they choose not to prioritise campaigning for it while it was so obviously unattainable and other more attainable goals were more fundamental? You're right, that is an interesting debate about how best to prioritise change. But not the same as actively opposing marriage rights.

Or you might be referring to a broader view that marriage is a heteronormative institution which gay people shouldn't be interested in. But that's quite a way from the COE position of gay couples (or at least gay couples in sexual relationships) are sinful and therefore should not exist and should not be married.

Of course you can. Sandi Toksvig has been called much worse on this thread than a bigot by the way - all in the same of checks notes standing up for women.

Of course the main difference is that a claim that the COE's position on gay couples is bigoted is, in my view, backed up by the facts but the claim that Sandi Toksvig is bigoted is not.

But not the same as actively opposing marriage rights.

Gay people actively picketed and protested people who were campaigning for same-sex marriage. They were being listened to by Stonewall. So I think it's not as clear cut as that. They were certainly conflicted about it - as are the COE as a group of people. I know for a fact that not everyone who identifies as COE opposes gay marriage.

Good post OP. I despise women who say things like Sandi has.

OK, well I did already argue that her position looks irrational:

She still seems to be using very strange "logic" here.

It was wrong to exclude lesbians from feminism.

Does that mean you can never correctly exclude anyone?

It's wrong to exclude a group of women, so it's wrong to exclude men? Or we know that trans women are "really women" because of how lesbians were treated?

From the quotes we have, it's just a very bad argument and nothing more than an emotional reaction from her.

Good grief.

Oh well, so she's sold her soul then.

A number of homosexuals don't think it's that straight forward, me included. But we shut up about it as straight people are busy virtue signalling they're good people using it.

Righthink stamps out nuance and the actual voices and diversity of the people involved.

It was a small reference in an interview, not a detailed opinion piece.

But of course it shouldn't be surprising that people who have experienced prejudice because of being gay would understand and empathise with trans people experiencing the same with almost identical arguments being used.

Though not sure what any of that has to do with her use of the word bigot which was, in my view entirely accurately, used to describe the anti-gay views of the COE.

Well I get it. She cant risk saying anything that might threaten her lucrative broadcasting career despite the fact that she ceased to be funny and engaging years ago.

if she, like the majority of lesbians, doesn't buy in to anti-trans thinking

Ah, you're suggesting that the majority of lesbians are glad to see men as women and have sex with them? And be told that they're sexual racists if they wish to define their dating pool as female only?

I haven't been surveyed. I don't know anyone in my lesbian groups who have been, so where's this 'majority' statistic come from? Could it possibly be from lovely TQ+ groups where all the non compliant homosexuals have been shamed into silence and ejected?

Gosh what a lovely inclusive and LGB friendly world this is :)

Of course you can. Sandi Toksvig has been called much worse on this thread than a bigot by the way - all in the same of checks notes - standing up for women.

Which women?

The ones detailed in the posts by YouJustDoYou and FinallyFinalGirl?

The ones detailed in posts by Froodwithatowel?

You are like every other craven 'ally' happy to exclude, demean, dehumanise and ride roughshod all over vulnerable, traumatised women as well as women and girls who just don't want to share spaces with males because, like Sandi you believe males must have everything and woman, if they are lucky, get the scraps.

You and Sandi are the same. Not tolerant, not liberal, not inclusive.

They’re not identical arguments at all tho. All LGB people wanted were the same rights as everyone else. TRA want the same rights as everyone (which they already have) plus the rights of the sex they identify into & that everyone else play along that they’ve changed sex as well - and if they don’t the law should compel them too

not remotely the same

What's your issue with Stonewall Housing?

Ah, I see. I had thought it was a wing of Stonewall.

Appears not, my mistake.

'Is Stonewall Housing affiliated with “Stonewall”, the LGBTQ+ rights charity?
We’re proud to share a similar name, but we’re not part of Stonewall – we’re totally separate organisations.

https://stonewallhousing.org/faqs/

Lots of people have different views on marriage, regardless of the sexuality of those getting married, including lesbians and gay men.

To say it's a 'bigoted' belief is inaccurate and over simplistic.