Girl Guides and Trans Awareness Week

[ScoldsBridle]

Pinning their contradictory, conflicting opinions to their mast. Who on earth do they think they’re appealing to? ‘Girl-only’ surely can’t include boys?

Are you a member? They’ve had Male Self ID for quite some time now and expelled members who expressed concerns.

Child safeguarding red flags all over that.

Royal Charter, eh, Prince A?

So much for protecting and providing a safe space for girls and young women.

Oh ffs.

I’ve known they’ve been on this track for some years (from threads on here) but I was still staggered by this blatant advertising of the fact. It’s loud and proud whereas i felt it had been buried in the small print before. Obviously all those leaders that have had to leave or have been asked to leave will be thinking ‘we’ve been telling you this’ - I’m just still aghast that they have written it down for all to see in all its non-sensical glory.

Absolutely revolting they’re trying to claim young members have asked for &/or consented to this. They’ve consistently been told girls want & value “a safe girl-only space”. They mean the female kind of girl tyvm Girlguiding. (Who are breaking their own Code of Conduct for Adult Members with their blatant lies/dissembling, btw 🤨)

Girlguiding very clearly intend people to infer that the Girls’ Attitudes Survey is a poll of the opinions of young members - lots of people assume it must be the case. No. Instead Girlguiding ask completely random girls & young women their views. Because reasons. Even if, however, it was 82% of Girlguiding’s young members aged 11-21 who had said they believe people should not be discriminated against because they are transgender - & 82% of a decent sample size, not the tiny one of the GAS - that’s not the same as saying they’re happy for Girlguiding to become a mixed sex organisation.

Have Girlguiding been putting in the work to stop being grotesquely ableist, classist, racist, & revelling in religious discrimination of assorted flavours? Of course not. Why do that when you’ve issued a non-apology & said “it’s all better now it’s in the past” & there are male interests to pander to 🤦‍♀️

It's inconsistent to admit transboys (i.e female-bodied children identifying as boys) in addition to transgirls (male-bodied children identifying as girls).

Either the word 'girl' refers to biological sex, in which case transboys should be admitted but transgirls not, or it refers to some innate sense of 'girly' essence which is shared by all girls and transgirls but is not shared by transboys. I fail to see how an 'all girls' group can admit both transboys and transgirls while still claiming to be solely for girls.

At some point, as the craziness continues, there will be grown men pushing to join these groups on the basis that they are 'transage'. I wonder how GG would react to the likes of Stefonknee Wolscht trying to join their organization as a child?

You'd think that at some point people would say 'no, a person with the body of a 50-year-old male cannot join a group for girls aged 10-14', but I never thought in my wildest dreams that women's sports would fall prey to this ideology - and yet it has. Once you start to deny biological reality in respect of sex, why not in respect of age?

It sounds like they have progressed in a good direction, as there was a time they suggested that girls identifying as boys should be asked to leave. I absolutely think that those children should be able to attend Guides and I'm glad they seem to think so too.

They're one organisation and not compulsory. I would still hate to be a leader and having to navigate this, but if I were a parent of a girl I'd certainly still consider Guides, I'd just be fairly bolshy about overnight accommodation arrangements. I bet most leaders take a rational view that the sexes should be separate.

It always puzzles me that "not wanting transgender people to be discriminated against" is translated as being permission to let men do what they want and everyone is happy with it.

@PermanentTemporary
They're not allowed to take said rational view; they can’t admit to having a trans person in their Unit; & you’d be told your daughter was welcome to attend for the day rather than participate in the residential aspect. (So no international events unless perhaps they’re Unit/District/Dividion ones & an adult guardian arranges accommodation close enough to drop they can drop your daughter off where everyone else is staying in time for breakfast every day. And not everyone would facilitate that.)

If Girlguiding is to change their rules and put safeguarding and fairness to their female members as a priority, then Girlguiding members need to band together and get in contact with District Commissioners, Division Commissiones, Region and County Commissioners and ask them some questions: do you believe that it’s fair for boys to compete in sports against girls? Is it fair for girls to lose their female-only toilets in schools and have to share those spaces with boys? Those answers will immediately tell you if you are dealing with a TRA or someone grounded in reality. Then you can move on to: is it safe and fair for girls to share overnight accommodation and bathroom facilities with boys? Is it a safeguarding issue that a first aider who is male needs a female chaperone but if the male self IDs as female then the chaperone is not needed? Is it a safeguarding issue to say that only females can take care of girls’ personal hygiene needs but if a male self IDs as female then he can do this? Do you think there’s any chance that Girlguiding has been groomed to enable perverts enhanced access to girls and young women?

Well quite. It really translates as 'allowing men and boys access to unconsenting females' because they don't ask the girls, do they? Not specifically if they're willing to share their spaces on each occasion. And parents aren't told if there'll be mixed sex accommodation identifying as 'girls only'. Of course there's a climate of 1984 style fear and what 13 year old girl would dare refuse the 50 year old man claiming to be a woman. Which I think is very much the point.

It's a huge safeguarding failure.

Whilst I realise that it is of little benefit to girls (as in female) is their policy directly discriminatory towards male boys? I can’t see how allowing females, females who identify as boys and males who identify as girls in but not allowing actual boys in would not be some sort of discrimination when you consider how comparators work in law.

They are fucking bullshit.

Incoherent, dangerous claptrap.

They say their primary object from the Royal Charter is to educate girls and young women, to help them develop emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually, and so ... they will be welcoming and supporting boys and young men.

Starting with employing a man in a basque cracking a whip and wanting to show his breasts off.

They shouldn't be anywhere near girls and young women.

I'm a leader. My DC has no idea about any of this. I really don't think a lot of the old school leaders who have been in guiding for eons, just running their units, and not taking much notice of what HQ is up to, have much of an idea.

My county has never answered a single query about safeguarding I've made as a leader, or complaint as a parent. They did seem to quietly disappear one county level diversity person, when I pointed out the violent stuff all over "their" social media, but nothing was ever said directly to me.

I will not have boys in my unit. I am prepared to walk away if I have to. It'll be their loss, they are absolutely desperate for volunteers where I live. It's inevitable that the only people who will be willing to volunteer will be from the trans community, and it will no longer be anything other than a propaganda and conversion vehicle for good little allies. I'd go now, but every time we have a great session (which is most sessions, because we put loads of hours into making it fun) and the girls are thanking us at the end, especially the newbies, I feel guilty. Guilt seems to be the main currency of volunteering.

Not surprised and am quite disappointed tbh. DD in rainbows and has v short hair. I was asked what her pronouns are shortly after starting. To say I was angry about my 6 year old having her pronouns questioned is an understatement.

So the Girl Guides is for:

• female children who call themselves girls
• male children who call themselves girls
• female children who call themselves boys; and
• female children who call themselves non-binary

but not

• male children who call themselves boys; or
• male children who call themselves non-binary

Why?

What's the point?

If you are including both female children who call themselves boys and male children who call themselves girls, and including some members of a group who have a non-binary gender identity but excluding other members of the same group on the basis of their biological sex, what the actual fucking fuckity fuck are your inclusion criteria? And why?

It's not a single sex organisation because you are including female children regardless of how they identify and male children if they identify as girls.

It's not a girls only organisation according to the original meaning of the word "girls" because you are including male children.

It's not a girls only organisation according to your new and improved definition of the word "girls" because you are including children who identify as boys or non binary.

So why are you banging on about the importance of it being a girls only organisation? Just admit that it is now a mixed sex organisation and the only people you are excluding are boys who don't identify as girls, and that you are discriminating against this one group on the basis of both their sex and their gender identity or lack thereof.

How can they actually come out with this crap?

Yes, I think it is discriminatory and should fall foul of the Equality Act.

If you stop people in the street and ask "Should [insert name of minority group here] be discriminated against?", they are going to say no, of course not. Doesn't alter the fact that GG should be for girls. So dishonest.

Yes, I think if you are lawfully discriminating against boys by not allowing them to join a single sex organisation for girls, you have to actually be running a single sex organisation.

What you can't do is run what is in actual fact a mixed sex organisation and discriminate against some boys on the basis of their sex and gender identity. Because your entire argument about the importance of having a single sex organisation for girls and it being legitimate and proportionate to exclude boys on that basis is completely undermined the moment you allow some male children to join.

I think they would argue it's not discriminatory because they are explicitly an organisation for girls not boys (which is allowed). It's just their definition of girls includes some boys. Who would be told to leave if they stopped ID'ing as a girl.
You will get nowhere asking questions as GG won't debate this. I think they do sort of listen and the rules around who can be in Guides has changed. Their first attempts at being trans inclusive meant trans boys would have been kicked out.
I think a lot of this is about saying the 'right' things. I don't know how many males are actually in Guides and saying they are female. Not many I would bet.

But it's not an organisation for girls according to either definition, since they allow both male children who identify as girls and female children who identify as something other than girls.

They would have to exclude all female children who identify as trans boys or non binary in order for their position to be coherent.

And it doesn't actually matter how many "trans girls" are in the Girl Guides.

The presence of even one male child changes the dynamic considerably.

I am a Guide leader and very opposed to trans identifying men and boys being members. Although I have no issues with having male unit helpers.
What makes this tricky is huge numbers of young women identifying as NB. When asked about trans inclusion this is what most of the girls are thinking about. They still want their friends to stay at Guides with them. And we need to support these girls as they come to terms with their changing bodies and help them realise that there is no right or wrong way to be a woman.
Fortunately I've not had to deal with any trans identifying male children. As my understanding is that there are very very few trans identifying males involved. It's obvious that trans boys are boys...
Sometimes I wonder if HQ just do this to stop us being targeted by TRAs, but not sure they're switched on enough for that.

What do you mean "trans boys are boys"?

Do you you mean male children who identify as girls are boys, or female children who identify as boys are boys?

Either way, the screen shots posted by the OP are a good example of the absolute nonsense resulting from this assault on language and common sense. Nobody knows what anybody is talking about, or what the relevant criteria are, or should be, or why.

How can any safeguarding take place amid such confusion?