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Original poster

BBC Sport article on Caster Semenya

31 replies

catduckgoose · 07/11/2023 07:39

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

Article published this morning is very biased as per usual. It completely omits to mention that:

  • he is male
  • he has 5-alpha reductase deficiency
  • the reason that his testosterone is in the normal male range is it's being produced by his testes
  • he has fathered two children

Semenya 'not ashamed of being different'

Caster Semenya tells the BBC she is "not going to be ashamed" of being "different", and will "fight for what is right" amid her ongoing dispute with athletics authorities.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

OP posts:
QuetzalTerfLus · 07/11/2023 07:43

i just read that. Very clever wording by Semenya -

“At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.

Deliberate omission of the crucial “with” before “internal testicles”

Its unbelievable that Semenya can claim that Semenya is fighting for women’s sports when the direct opposite is true.

MagpiePi · 07/11/2023 08:05

The fact that sporting bodies are gradually admitting that women are being shat on by men claiming to be women is throwing more light on the whole issue. Semenya is having to double down on the narrative that he is a woman otherwise he will have to admit that his successful sporting career as a woman will have been a lie.
Sadly, there are still too many bodies such as the BBC (and the Guardian that did a similar article about Semenya a couple of weeks ago) that are still pushing the line that men being barred from competing in women's sports is just women being mean.

Helleofabore · 07/11/2023 08:12

just adding this thread link for those interested in some of the background.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4822942-caster-semenya-biography?page=1

Thanks OP for posting this article. The BBC looks to be continuing their line of not informing the public. As you say, the points they miss out on are significant.

SerotinaPickeler · 07/11/2023 08:35

Just read this on the BBC website, it's very easy to see what's not being said and questions not being asked when you know what you're looking for. Explained all this to DH and he can very clearly see this.

It's not right that Semenya is given this promotional platform without an opportunity to provide balance, as the truth in this case completely torpedoes the falsehoods Semenya is claiming. The BBC need to enable the other side of the story aka the truth!

NecessaryScene · 07/11/2023 08:51

he has fathered two children

We don't know this last point. The supposition in our circles that he might have has grown legs over the years and become "he has". It's a zombie factoid we see repeated.

My understanding is that it's often possible for 5-ARD individuals to father children, albeit using artificial insemination. And I think that "often" is something like 50% rather than 5% or 95%.

So it has been speculated that Semenya did. As far as I know, there is no evidence for it, but on the other hand there's no evidence to the contrary.

We can at least say that there being speculation on a ~50% chance that an individual is some children's father rules out being female 😂

PTSDBarbiegirl · 07/11/2023 08:57

I can't understand what's in it for the BBC who seem to be overlooking feeling about these men among the female community of viewers and of female athletes. Why is this narrative of women not being kind etc etc being pushed?

zozueme · 07/11/2023 08:57

QuetzalTerfLus · 07/11/2023 07:43

i just read that. Very clever wording by Semenya -

“At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.

Deliberate omission of the crucial “with” before “internal testicles”

Its unbelievable that Semenya can claim that Semenya is fighting for women’s sports when the direct opposite is true.

Well indeed. And being born with internal testicles very much does make Caster Semenya less of a woman.

Original poster
catduckgoose · 07/11/2023 09:09

NecessaryScene · 07/11/2023 08:51

he has fathered two children

We don't know this last point. The supposition in our circles that he might have has grown legs over the years and become "he has". It's a zombie factoid we see repeated.

My understanding is that it's often possible for 5-ARD individuals to father children, albeit using artificial insemination. And I think that "often" is something like 50% rather than 5% or 95%.

So it has been speculated that Semenya did. As far as I know, there is no evidence for it, but on the other hand there's no evidence to the contrary.

We can at least say that there being speculation on a ~50% chance that an individual is some children's father rules out being female 😂

@NecessaryScene thanks for the correction! I'm about to pop a complaint in to the BBC so am very glad I read your message first before sending them fake news.

OP posts:
ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 09:24

This is copied across from the other thread:

"The fact that sporting bodies are gradually admitting that women are being shat on by men claiming to be women is throwing more light on the whole issue. Semenya is having to double down on the narrative that he is a woman otherwise he will have to admit that his successful sporting career as a woman will have been a lie."

Having skimmed through the interview in the Graun and these threads, one thing that does really strike me is the appalling lack of safeguarding for young athletes like CS when they were a teenager.

Surely the people who promoted CSs career must have had some inkling of the world of pain that might open for this youngster (only 18 and already on the world athletics stage) if the deception was challenged.

Even if CS knew that CS wasn't really a woman (and given the very hazy level of biological understanding of some friends of mine at well over 18...will CS have understood what that meant? Would CSs coaches have coached CS to belive in CSs femaleness? prolonging their confusion, perhaps?) - I think they were dragged into the lie at an age when they may not have been able to see what was really happening. Im not sure a teenager in that position could really have been said to make an informed decision to deceive and cheat at that point.

I am not surprised in a way that they now cling to that story. And I think they (CS and others in the same position)are owed a massive apology by the people who exploited them.

Like film or popstardom, athletic stardom seems a very dangerous place for children.

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 09:29

Sorry intended to tag the poster I was quoting but can't find my way back to the thread 😬. Will try again in a minute

AIstolemylunch · 07/11/2023 09:39

Indotm feelmsorrybfor CS anymore, he continues to lie and cheat. I do feel sorry for his wife who is forced to deny her sexuality.

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 09:51

Yes, I guess the deception is now being voluntarily undertaken and is a moral choice - but I still think the teenage Semenya was harmed by the whole deception starting off

puffyisgood · 07/11/2023 10:07

"I... have a vagina just like any other woman."

(1) So having a "vagina" is relevant to being a woman but having testes is not?

(2) It's highly unlikely, in my opinion, that CS really does have a vagina, I think she means 'something that could be mistaken for a vulva if you don't look too hard'. There's a rather grim passage in the book, one that would certainly draw the sympathy of any reader me included, when a world athletics doctor, brandishing an ultrasound wand, wants to use it for an internal examination, CS refuses and they agree a compromise on it being inserted anally. I found it very difficult to avoid the suspicion that the wand wouldn't have been in any way usable in the way that the doctor originally wanted, this is by far the simplest and most obvious reason for CS's refusal.

LizzieSiddal · 07/11/2023 10:09

Caster is on WH now.

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 10:10

Oh God that's horrible @puffyisgood . Though it kind of reinforces my view that it was very wicked of SA athletics (or whoever was "handling" CS) to put a teenager in a situation where this was likely to be the kind of thing they would be faced with.

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 10:13

For all we know CS may think, along with a large proportion of anglophone adults, that the word for folded external genitalia without a visible penis is indeed "vagina" rather than vulva

puffyisgood · 07/11/2023 10:14

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 10:10

Oh God that's horrible @puffyisgood . Though it kind of reinforces my view that it was very wicked of SA athletics (or whoever was "handling" CS) to put a teenager in a situation where this was likely to be the kind of thing they would be faced with.

yep. she describes a very light touch medical/test in Africa just before the world championships at which she's outed, which she sort-of-passes seemingly with a knowing wink from a 'kindly' doctor, then is very understandably surprised when she gets to Berlin and things suddenly get very real.

puffyisgood · 07/11/2023 10:18

the real villains of the piece are the activists who lobbied for stopping cheek swabs/chromosome tests, it was their actions that led to an 18 year old kid (I won't say girl) having confusingly censored versions of this kind of drama being splashed all over the world's papers. this said I suppose CS's material living standards now are vastly, incomparably better than the ones she describes for the rest of her family, I suppose that initial error has helped her a great deal, albeit not as smoothly as she'd want.

puffyisgood · 07/11/2023 10:24

ValerieDoonican · 07/11/2023 10:13

For all we know CS may think, along with a large proportion of anglophone adults, that the word for folded external genitalia without a visible penis is indeed "vagina" rather than vulva

that's absolutely right and it's a bit of a hobby horse of mine. CS's spoken English is very decent, and I'm sure she had a professional writer to help her with the book, but as she confesses it was picked up with a lot of help from Hollywood films and such like, not known for their accurate use of the other V-word.

Georgeburgess · 07/11/2023 13:24

It is giveaways like this that show us that Semenya is a dishonest fraud

BonfireLady · 07/11/2023 20:59

QuetzalTerfLus · 07/11/2023 07:43

i just read that. Very clever wording by Semenya -

“At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.

Deliberate omission of the crucial “with” before “internal testicles”

Its unbelievable that Semenya can claim that Semenya is fighting for women’s sports when the direct opposite is true.

Interestingly the word "with" is now there.....

It's a very important distinction. My husband and I had a chat about this story this morning. He had read it (with the original wording) and he was listening to me saying how it had taken me quite a while for me to fully understand (and accept) that Caster is a man with a male DSD. I still feel quite conflicted about how it must feel to be brought up with people telling you you're a girl and being subject to all the unconscious/conscious sex-based expectations and limitations that go along with that. Also the pressure from the running coaches etc.
However, ultimately Caster is a man with a DSD.
My husband took issue with this - with me saying Caster was a man - and quoted this particular part of the article from memory. In its original format. Clearly for my husband, this was the key piece of information that helped to centre what the article was all about.

Once we talked it through I felt pretty cross at how it had been positioned in this way. I went online to get the quote in order to submit a complaint.... and found it had been changed.

However, how many other people will have read it before this edit and taken the same information from it as my husband did?

Ideally it would have said "and with" rather than "or with"... But I am wondering how the change was made anyway, given it was a quote.

Original poster
catduckgoose · 07/11/2023 22:42

They changed quite a bit of the article since it was first published this morning including the quote @BonfireLady spotted:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20231107064406/20231107214255/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20231107064406/20231107214255/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536

BBC Sport article on Caster Semenya
OP posts:
OP posts:
ruthieness · 15/11/2023 19:57

I complained to the bbc about the article

this is their reply

Thanks for contacting us about an article on our BBC Sport website headlined ‘Caster Semenya: Double Olympic champion 'not ashamed of being different'’ (www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67336536).

We’ve edited the article to remove any reference to hyperandrogenism, in order to avoid confusion across different terms.

The article now refers to differences of sexual development (DSD) more generally. We’ve highlighted that Semenya was born with DSD ‘which mean she has an elevated level of testosterone - a hormone that increases muscle mass and strength’. We’ve also highlighted that all athletes with DSD are not allowed to compete in female track events unless they reduce their testosterone levels.

This is a complex topic, and we’ve now also published a Q&A article, answering some of the main questions asked about this issue (www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67367157). We hope this helps to explain some of the further details of this story.

We understand you may continue to feel we should do things differently, and we’d like to thank you for sharing your concerns with us, which we’ve discussed with the team at the Sport website. This helps to inform our work moving forward.

Thanks again and wishing you all the best,

BBC Complaints Team