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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall releases report on "dehumanising" discrimination against asexuals

370 replies

GinAllAround · 02/11/2023 09:39

I'm not doubting that you can be judged socially for saying you're asexual but is it really the same as being gay or lesbian?

Although I agree that it shouldn't be classed as a MH condition, I've never heard of anyone being denied a job or housing for being asexual or being beaten up or taunted in the streets.

And what extra legal protection/rights do asexual people need? Surely they have the same rights as anyone else?

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/new-research-shining-light-‘dehumanising’-discrimination-faced-ace-people

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Yorkshirelass04 · 02/11/2023 10:11

I suppose the only real disadvantage asexuals might have is that some parts of the world are designed for couples rather than singles. But then they have no different a problem to people who are single by circumstance or by choice.

nauticant · 02/11/2023 10:14

I'm a broken record on this but "asexual" in its modern meaning doesn't mean not having sex, the defining factor is someone's state of mind about what they think about sexual attraction. Someone can be being asexual while thoroughly enjoying the sexy feelings they get from the act of sex. It's really angels on a pinhead stuff.

MagpiePi · 02/11/2023 10:15

Yorkshirelass04 · 02/11/2023 10:11

I suppose the only real disadvantage asexuals might have is that some parts of the world are designed for couples rather than singles. But then they have no different a problem to people who are single by circumstance or by choice.

But who knows whether those couples have sex?

vinegarasacleaner · 02/11/2023 10:16

Toseland · 02/11/2023 09:53

Getting ready for all those left with no sexual function after Trans surgeries. Their healthcare needs will probably be to be provided with a surrogate if they want a family.

Yes, and not just that... there's increasing awareness of sexual disinterest/dysfunction during/after prescription of SSRIs, and I suspect the rumblings of a tsunami of potential issues for pharma industry. Suspect this goes deep.

BodegaSushi · 02/11/2023 10:17

I cannot imagine how it even comes to this in the workplace. I worked in a place where I was single the entire time. I didn't bleat on about it and it never led to inappropriate questions? Where are these people working?

Delays to vital healthcare??? HOW?

Stonewall releases report on "dehumanising" discrimination against asexuals
LakeTiticaca · 02/11/2023 10:17

Some people don't like shagging. I'm assuming that's what being asexual is.
Why does anyone else need to know or even want to know?

another1bitestheduck · 02/11/2023 10:18

as an ace person, I can see both points of view -

In terms of comparing it to being gay/lesbian I 100% agree with you the potential for danger or even overt discrimination is probably much less, particularly in parts of the world where being gay is much more dangerous.

I also agree that the 'coming out in work' thing is a bit of a red herring because I don't particularly feel the need to 'come out' as asexual to anyone other than very close friends/family, because my colleagues/random acquaintances don't ask me about my sex life, and if they did I could shut it down as being inappropriate. Plus to be honest I'm not a fan of the whole 'bring your whole self to work' mantra anyway...most of the time I don't want to BE in work so if I brought that part of me to work it probably wouldn't end well 😂

Also agree dehumanising is a strong word, but it does explain why in the summary - because some people think there must be something wrong with you and you're not fully human if you don't experience sexual attraction.

There was a thread on here recently where someone got very offended that their husband's (not even their own!) workplace had an asexual visibility day or something and it quickly degenerated to accusations that ace people were enabling the trans movement by making lack of sexual attraction seem normal, and were also likely to be pedophiles (didn't really get the rationale for that one), which tbh was pretty upsetting to read.

@IncomingTraffic - if you actually read just the summary, not even the report, it explains the healthcare element and refers particularly in relation to smears. I've been in the position where I've tried to explain why I'm not sexually active etc. and unfortunately it has led to some inappropriate and totally unnecessary questions both from a physical and mental health POV - I agree with you that it SHOULDN'T, and presumably that's what the report is trying to achieve - that someone can just say 'I'm not sexually active' or 'I'm asexual' and that will end the conversation.

I also wouldn't agree that 'no one cares' about your asexuality - a lot of people don't care, and honestly that is great - I don't want people to care - my ideal reaction to 'coming out' as ace (as above I don't feel the need to do so to 99.9% of people I interact with) would be a semi-bored 'Oh, okay. Do you want a cup of tea.' But there are a minority of people who DO react very offensively which is why I'm assuming the report makes the recommendations it does - to try and get discrimination against ace people to the same level as straight/gay people rather than demanding anything 'special.'

So basically - you're entitled to your views but I would query why people who clearly haven't experienced any of the things ACTUAL ace people have said they have feel the need to dispute their own lived experience. If you are white would you think it's okay to query the validity of a report about black people's experience in the workplace by saying 'nobody cares about your colour' 'that hasn't happened to me so I don't think it's something worth talking about or legislating for,' etc?

I would also query why it affects you -
@MrsOvertonsWindow - presumably you don't feel you would be otherwise entitled to stonewall funding? And Stonewall is a UK based LGBT+ charity so even if it didn't spend its money on this report, it would be unlikely to be spending it on 'people with serious illnesses' or whatever. Its whole mission is advocating for the rights of people on the LGBT spectrum, which Asexual people are, so I can't see how it's inappropriate of them to fund research into doing exactly that.

If were a regular donor to stonewall and thought your money should be better spent campaigning for legislation to improve LGBT safety in Qatar or whatever, then fine. But if you don't actually have any skin in the game and your only argument is 'this doesn't affect me personally so I think it's irrelevant to everyone else and thus a waste of time,' then that's not a great rationale.

KeyboardCrumbsly · 02/11/2023 10:20

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 02/11/2023 10:09

*I'm sure some people have odd opinions about asexuals, because people have odd opinions about absolutely everything.

But not being out at work, does anyone really care if someone is having sex or not? It's a million miles away from coming out as LGB*

I can safely say that in 45 years of work no-one's ever asked me about my sexuality or if and how I've having sex. Obvs when I was married people assumed I WAS having sex, but since being divorced it's not something I feel the need to keep people updated on. And no-one I work with has been interested enough to enquire.

As pp said - utter clowns.

I've just name changed to respond to your post, because at my place of work there is a new LGBTQ+ Action plan and one of the points is to run a campaign to encourage everyone to share whether they are LGTQ+ (what does the + include these days?) on institutional systems so that data can be collated and proportionate support offered. I have a very big or

KeyboardCrumbsly · 02/11/2023 10:22

Sorry

..big problem with that, it's incredible intrusive and I can't see how it fits within GDPR.

Anyway I've had a draft email for a few days that I'm not sure if I'm going to send, that queries the wisdom of this. I keep thinking...it's none of my business, doesn't apply to me, but out. And yet...😫

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 02/11/2023 10:23

All of it is leading us down a very expensive and stupid rabbit hole where immature young people who haven't come to terms with their own sexuality or existence as a sexual being (including their body shape and key features e.g. a vagina) are now being led to believe they can choose their gender and/or have babies without attempting to procreate or thinking about the potential cost to society of their entitled expectation to get a baby injected into their uterus for free on the NHS.

Ultimately, if this goes anywhere and it gets legislated to be discrimination to expect someone to try and get pregnant with some sperm before getting IVF, the NHS will have to stop funding fertility treatment for anyone to make it fair. They should stop funding gender treatment too. The alternative is bankrupting themselves for things that are optional for people (too immature to have babies) who think a £50,000 treatment should be available for free rather than attempting to get pregnant by themselves. Lesbians don't default to IVF, most start with buying some sperm and doing self-insemination! Why should anyone else be any different?

KohlaParasaurus · 02/11/2023 10:24

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2023 09:59

It also covers people who only want to have sex with people they’re romantically attracted to. Also known as “normal people” 🤨

Oh! Does this mean that Stonewall is going to get involved in the genuine and widespread problem of forced marriage? 🤔

Toloveandtowork · 02/11/2023 10:24

Many post menopausal women would qualify for the definition of asexual. The report sounds very much like the kind of social injustices women face.

So maybe the kind folk at Stonewall are really wanting to help postmenopausal women😂

NotBadConsidering · 02/11/2023 10:24

But there are a minority of people who DO react very offensively

It’s just nonsense. Utter nonsense. People react offensively when men “come out” as not liking football. Or when people say they can’t stand GBBO. Or when British people say they don’t like tea.

You don’t like something. It isn’t for you. Fair enough. But in no way does that mean you’re any more special or different or have “lived experiences” we need to listen to anymore than anyone else who doesn’t like a certain thing. Just because it’s sex doesn’t make it worthy of a title.

IncomingTraffic · 02/11/2023 10:25

There’s also bullshit about banning asexual conversion practices. Which probably encompasses everything from people saying ‘maybe you’ve just not met anyone you like enough yet’ to ‘please stop going on about how you don’t want to have sex; what’s wrong with you? I don’t care about your sex life’

Soontobe60 · 02/11/2023 10:28

IncomingTraffic · 02/11/2023 09:56

There’s actually a sob story in there about a woman who wasn’t referred for fertility treatment because she wasn’t having sex. And how she’d have been referred if she was having sex.

Obviously. If you are not having sex there is absolutely no evidence that you have fertility problems. There’s no biological dysfunction to be treated. You are simply not having sex so obviously you’re not pregnant.

This is just pandering to incredible levels of entitlement.

Id suggest that anyone who turns up at their GPs surgery asking for a referral to a fertility clinic because they don't have sex, should be prescribed a turkey baster!

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 02/11/2023 10:29

The other thing that gets me is how interlinked all this stuff is.
The sex positive movement has led people to believe you should be interested in vicariously having porn-style sex and if that doesn't interest you, this lot are telling you you must be asexual.
They can't cash in on asexuality the way they can cash in on genderfeelz, so now they're creating a market for IVF with it.

RunningAndSinging · 02/11/2023 10:30

WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 02/11/2023 10:23

All of it is leading us down a very expensive and stupid rabbit hole where immature young people who haven't come to terms with their own sexuality or existence as a sexual being (including their body shape and key features e.g. a vagina) are now being led to believe they can choose their gender and/or have babies without attempting to procreate or thinking about the potential cost to society of their entitled expectation to get a baby injected into their uterus for free on the NHS.

Ultimately, if this goes anywhere and it gets legislated to be discrimination to expect someone to try and get pregnant with some sperm before getting IVF, the NHS will have to stop funding fertility treatment for anyone to make it fair. They should stop funding gender treatment too. The alternative is bankrupting themselves for things that are optional for people (too immature to have babies) who think a £50,000 treatment should be available for free rather than attempting to get pregnant by themselves. Lesbians don't default to IVF, most start with buying some sperm and doing self-insemination! Why should anyone else be any different?

Edited

But the asexual couple in the report had been trying with insemination for a year and that wasn’t counted as trying.

I do get that it must be awful if all the health care professionals keep trying to cure the asexuality before treating the problem the person came in with. That is what they are saying is happening. Who are we not to believe the people experiencing it?

ResisterRex · 02/11/2023 10:33

It's nonsense but possibly the point of this is to start expanding legal categories of sexual orientation.

Enter: Minor Attracted Persons...

It'll happen if these people are not confronted.

BodegaSushi · 02/11/2023 10:33

Soontobe60 · 02/11/2023 10:28

Id suggest that anyone who turns up at their GPs surgery asking for a referral to a fertility clinic because they don't have sex, should be prescribed a turkey baster!

But this doesn’t make sense either because there are loads of single women by choice who have babies on their own through donors. Whether or not they’re having sex isn’t a factor (AFAIK).

IncomingTraffic · 02/11/2023 10:33

@IncomingTraffic - if you actually read just the summary, not even the report, it explains the healthcare element and refers particularly in relation to smears. I've been in the position where I've tried to explain why I'm not sexually active etc. and unfortunately it has led to some inappropriate and totally unnecessary questions both from a physical and mental health POV - I agree with you that it SHOULDN'T, and presumably that's what the report is trying to achieve - that someone can just say 'I'm not sexually active' or 'I'm asexual' and that will end the conversation.

Do you know what any HCP working in
areas aligned to sexual activity will
tell you - people lie about this stuff. So they have to ask multiple ways because it actually does matter. The examples are if people using contraception since 13 but saying they have never had sex - that’s exactly the kind of thing people aren’t truthful about. Similarly, why be so weird and sensitive about ‘virgin equipment’ if you are a virgin?

I have read the report. The healthcare sections really, really do feel like desperate excuses to find something and feel discriminated against.

No one enjoys smear tests. They are undignified, uncomfortable (can be painful) and involve lots of questions you might not fancy answering. It’s shit. But it’s NHS health screening.

IncomingTraffic · 02/11/2023 10:34

Those will have been the cherry picked best examples the authors had too. And they’re not convincing of a systematic discriminatory issue.

IDontHateRainbows · 02/11/2023 10:34

I don't understand why someone who doesn't want to have sex (due to lack of desire) but wants a baby can't just 'lie back and think of england'

We do all sorts of things we may not want to because the end justifies the means. I mean, I hate changing the bed but I like having clean sheets, that sort of thing.

To give a fertile woman ivf is just nuts.

I

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/11/2023 10:34

NICE guidelines recognise artificial insemination as trying to get pregnant with sperm.

HermioneWeasley · 02/11/2023 10:35

“Its whole mission is advocating for the rights of people on the LGBT spectrum, which Asexual people are..”

@another1bitestheduck LGB are sexual orientations. T is a gender identity/gender dysphoria so they have nothing in common. Being asexual in the sense of not wanting sex is not a sexual orientation any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby or being atheist is a religion.

GinAllAround · 02/11/2023 10:35

But the asexual couple in the report had been trying with insemination for a year and that wasn’t counted as trying.

I don't know what the rules are around IVF but would the same not apply to a non-ace straight couple who'd been trying with insemination only?

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