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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stonewall releases report on "dehumanising" discrimination against asexuals

370 replies

GinAllAround · 02/11/2023 09:39

I'm not doubting that you can be judged socially for saying you're asexual but is it really the same as being gay or lesbian?

Although I agree that it shouldn't be classed as a MH condition, I've never heard of anyone being denied a job or housing for being asexual or being beaten up or taunted in the streets.

And what extra legal protection/rights do asexual people need? Surely they have the same rights as anyone else?

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/new-research-shining-light-‘dehumanising’-discrimination-faced-ace-people

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RunningAndSinging · 06/11/2023 14:46

SaffronSpice · 06/11/2023 14:31

So you accept that your initial proposition of taking it at face value was wrong.

You still haven’t explained why (libido and physical issues aside) whether someone is happy or not to not be having sex is medically relevant.

I think we can believe our friends when they tell us something about themselves. Yes. Maybe believing everyone about everthing immediately and then putting yourself in a vulnerable position on the strength of that isn’t very wise. I am willing to consider both sides of the argument - I can accept that I am not always perfectly right about everything but am not also saying that I was completely wrong. It depends on the circumstances.

I don’t think we can put libido and physical issues aside when we consider if someone is happy or not to be having sex is medically relevant. Those are the things that make it medically relevant. If someone tells their doctor that the don’t have sex and don’t want to and are happy with that then that isn’t medically relevant to the problem they have. In that case there is no need for counselling which is what the person in the report is saying she had to do before she was referred to a gynaecologist for her pain.

Datun · 06/11/2023 15:32

SaffronSpice · 06/11/2023 14:34

Any suggestion that anyone should talk about their sex life at work seems to walking awfully closed to sexual harassment.

Yeah, it's generally too much information in my opinion.

If someone says I'm asexual, I'd feel a little uncomfortable. I don't really want to know. In the same way I don't need to know if you're shagging everything in sight.

Surely a smile and 'i'm single at the moment, and happy with it' is perfectly sufficient if you're asked. It's not the sort of answer that encourages further questioning.

SaffronSpice · 06/11/2023 16:01

RunningAndSinging · 06/11/2023 14:46

I think we can believe our friends when they tell us something about themselves. Yes. Maybe believing everyone about everthing immediately and then putting yourself in a vulnerable position on the strength of that isn’t very wise. I am willing to consider both sides of the argument - I can accept that I am not always perfectly right about everything but am not also saying that I was completely wrong. It depends on the circumstances.

I don’t think we can put libido and physical issues aside when we consider if someone is happy or not to be having sex is medically relevant. Those are the things that make it medically relevant. If someone tells their doctor that the don’t have sex and don’t want to and are happy with that then that isn’t medically relevant to the problem they have. In that case there is no need for counselling which is what the person in the report is saying she had to do before she was referred to a gynaecologist for her pain.

I don’t think we can put libido and physical issues aside. I say to put them aside because I had already included them in the consideration of medical need. You were saying that it is medically relevant for other reasons in addition to libido and physical issues. I was asking what those reasons were.

IncomingTraffic · 06/11/2023 16:04

RunningAndSinging · 06/11/2023 14:37

They don’t need to know and having read a few of these threads on Mumsnet I don’t blame the people for not saying anything for fear of being branded an attention seeking, over sharing, navel gazer. But colleagues at work chat about life outside of work and are friendly with each other (ideally) and so it could just come up as part of that if it wasn’t stigmatised. There is plenty of chat about new relationships, engagements, break ups etc in a normal work team - no one needs to know any of that either.

Oh come on, chat about relationships is not the same as chat about sexual attraction or drive.

Especially given that many ‘asexual’ people still want to have romantic relationships - they even get married and stuff.

There really is no way to bring your asexuality into a conversation that making it about your personal views on sex.

It’s no more appropriate that whittering on about spanking with a Wii remote.

SaffronSpice · 06/11/2023 16:07

Can you just imagine… new 18 year old female starts work in a male dominated environment. Boss asks

”So, [new girl], what are your sexual preferences?”

No, not sexual harassment at all 🤔

RavingStone · 06/11/2023 16:13

Tbh if a man who wasn't a good friend told me he was asexual, I'd assume he was attempting to lower my guard before some kind of boundary violation.

RunningAndSinging · 06/11/2023 16:28

SaffronSpice · 06/11/2023 16:01

I don’t think we can put libido and physical issues aside. I say to put them aside because I had already included them in the consideration of medical need. You were saying that it is medically relevant for other reasons in addition to libido and physical issues. I was asking what those reasons were.

I feel like we are going round in circles here when we actually agree with each other that those are the medically relevant reasons. Maybe I wasn’t very clear but that is what I meant.

ProtectAndTerf · 06/11/2023 16:29

I did actually have a man mention to me he was asexual. I remember the specific occasion we were at, it was in 2010, before the alphabet soup got too mad.

Seemed totally appropriate in the situation, can't remember exactly what we were talking about but it came up naturally. That said, we were in our 20s in a wild house party so at that age and level of intoxication people talk about all sorts of more personal stuff.

I asked if he might feel differently if he met the right person, and he explained it was more about not having sexual feelings towards anyone. Now I think about it, I think he may have been finding it difficult wanting romantic relationships without sex being a part.

Anyway... Conversation moved on, party was awesome. Because there's so much more to life and people than who they have sex with (or don't).

(For the record, he was a good friend of a friend so I saw him around a bit, pretty sure it wasn't some method of hitting on me.)

This seems to differ from the stonewall narrative in two ways - one, that being asexual meant not having or wanting sex (rather than the definition that appears to include most people), and two, that whilst presenting difficulties that one might fairly feel sympathetic about, there weren't sketchy claims of discrimination and inequality.

Idontpostmuch · 06/11/2023 18:05

ProtectAndTerf · 06/11/2023 12:56

Heterosexual won't get in there, they're the "oppressors". Even though there'll only be about three left by the time everyone else has been included under the LGBTQIA+ label. (This thread has taught me I'm demisexual and greysexual so I've realised I'm terribly oppressed and haven't at all benefitted from a heteronormative society.)

I bet "wankers" gets in there soon, in all seriousness. It'll be called something like "solosexual" and involve demanding the "right" to masturbate in public and watch any kind of horrific porn. Which should be provided on the NHS.

@ProtectAndTerf Aha, 'greysexual'. It hadn't occurred to me before, but it's spelled 'graysexual'. Proof that all this has come from the U.S. Do we really have to import all their drivel !!

borntobequiet · 06/11/2023 18:42

I had assumed that grey (or gray) sexual was oldies like me. Or people who are attracted to oldies like me. Anyway, it should be. What a slap in the face for senior citizens that it’s something even more meaningless than all the other tosh.

maltravers · 06/11/2023 19:02

My son has recently gone to university and to register had to complete all sort of questions, including about his sexuality, race and gender expression. He was cross as he considered these questions prurient and irrelevant (as I would have in his shoes!) and he didn’t want to complete them (but had to). I told him to fill in the answers as he liked and did not oversee it, so nothing to do with keeping stuff from me. I can see this new string to Stonewall’s bow leading to even more intrusive questions about whether you have sex and in what circumstances. Ugh- why can’t they just F off and leave people alone!?

AnActualAsexual · 07/11/2023 09:19

Have namechanged, obviously, not joined MN just to post on this thread.

The only other time/place than here that I’ve told anyone I’m asexual probably doesn’t even meet the bar of telling: when I was diagnosed with autism in my mid/late twenties (I’m in my thirties now) the team asked lots about relationships of various sorts; one of them suggested that I am asexual; & after looking it up I agreed. At that point there was a much clearer definition: no sexual attraction to anyone, ever; & thus no having sex of one’s own volition. Essentially a sexual orientation - like the flip side of bisexuality, whereby instead of attraction to both sexes, there’s an absence of attraction to either sex.

That said, & fun as vexillology is, there’s no need for a flag. (Silly me, there’s already a flag isn’t there. Bound to be. Of course there is.) There’s no need for whatever the Asexual Visibility Network that article mentions, let alone Stonewall’s self-indulgent carnival of the absurd. Sometimes you encounter awkward situations: it must be quite nice to have lived such a charmed life that you think having to endure awkward encounters with other humans is oppression.

Groups like Stonewall making the term “asexual” effectively useless is frustrating. It is obviously nothing like the damage done/attacks on the definitions of “gay”, “lesbian”, & indeed “bisexual” (I understand attraction to both sexes does not mean to the 3 most common genders), please don’t think I intend to suggest that - “frustrating” was exactly what I meant. I had a word for my [absence of] sexuality/sexual orientation; & I effectively, due to its mangling, no longer do. Identitarians desperate to be oppressed have warped its meaning so it fits them (& indeed almost anyone who wants to wear it) & they can waft about, claiming they are “Queer” because, like most humans, they prefer having an emotional connection with their sexual partner to having sex with randoms/strings of one night stands/FWB arrangements etc. I am aware some of my frustration will come from my being neurodivergent (needing order, not good with change etc) but I do have much bigger concerns: as a PP said, using this nonsense to try to create an illusion that hypersexuality is the norm; which can only lead to attempts to normalise things that are currently taboo. And it won’t be a sudden abandonment of censuring women for [perceived] promiscuity [while lauding men for the same behaviour].

I’m not sure the report should be dignified with the name “research”. Truly execrable. But we all know it will be waved about (think Chamberlain & his 1938 private accord - NB regard in triumphant style only, not calling Stonewall et al Hitler nor indeed making comment on any facial hair situations) as if it were chock-full of meta-analyses, had a sample size of 2.9 million, controls, & at least a decade of work. All because some people are so desperate to elbow their way into being a “special minority”.

I’ve noticed, as an aside, a distinct propensity for IDing into as many oppressed minorities as they [think they] can get away with. Mostly this means nebulous claims of being a “queer disabled [insert noun here]” - fortuitously their disabilities never mean missing big events, or holidays, or stopping drinking alcohol/doing things absolutely contraindicated with the condition(s) they claim. If I never hear “neurospicy” again it will be too soon - & I’ve developed a serious aversion to people who “advocate” & “educate” aka “tantrum, bully & sulk” and “spread [damaging] misinformation“. You also see lots of claims of “being Jewish/Roma/First Nations” based on a distant ancestor - sometimes leading into “I’m two-spirit because…” which must make people’s teeth itch whatever their view of the term.

What’s actually causing harm (& to be honest, that’s stretching definition of “harm” to its outer limits) to asexual people is completely destroying the meaning of the word to accommodate yet more people who want to be interesting & oppressed. Having a personality is of course utterly passé; one must instead festoon oneself with labels as if one were Phileas Fogg’s suitcase - & being white cis-het (especially if you’re middle class) is practically criminal. It’s not acceptable to claim to be a different race (please do all join in with a rousing chorus of The Question: like the Hogwarts School Song, pick your favourite tune) so genderqueer/NB/agender-asexual/demisexual/graysexual & voilà, you are officially Queer! It doesn’t matter that there were people already using that label, because they weren’t using it properly. They weren’t demanding privileges rights, or having awareness days - they didn’t even have a flag. (There probably were/are some identitarian-types amongst Actual Asexuals, but only because every group contains intolerable idiots.) Lots of Actual Asexuals - according to team who did my autism assessment - have autism: the theory (ethical issues around researching; possibly funding?) is that we’re just not wired, neurologically speaking, to experience sexual attraction.

Something useful Stonewall could have done if they were hell-bent on focusing on asexuality (& not, say, the fact homosexuality is still illegal in 65 countries) is stuff on combatting loneliness & isolation. Because actual asexuals, not the pretendy ones, do often struggle with that (as in, the pretendy ones are busy having their relationships). But that’s not a human rights issue, or a thing to campaign about, or something unique to asexuals. It’s just that if you’ve identified a group & decided to go to bat for them, something useful would be good, rather than whatever the hell they produced.

Sorry this is so long: sometimes my autism means I struggle to decide which information other people will find relevant/important/interesting & I really need to feed my pets & myself & then get some sleep rather than try to edit it, which suspect would just make it into gibberish.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/2023/04/28/asexual-demisexual-pride-flags-colors-explained/11635249002/

IcakethereforeIam · 07/11/2023 10:01

As a stream of consciousness, if that's what that was, I thought that made an interesting, informative and entertaining read. Thank you.

DevonWindyWeather · 07/11/2023 11:32

This

@AnActualAsexual
Thank you for sharing

Joolsin · 07/11/2023 15:40

You've just written one of the most accurate, all-encompassing and sensible posts I've ever read on the whole "umbrella of queerness" @AnActualAsexual 👏🏻

nauticant · 07/11/2023 20:45

Another one here who's a fan of your post @AnActualAsexual.

ArthurbellaScott · 07/11/2023 21:25

Excellent rant, AnActualAsexual. I really enjoyed it.

PurpleBugz · 07/11/2023 21:43

@AnActualAsexual

That was awesome 👏

AnActualAsexual · 07/11/2023 22:40

Thank you 😳 I’m glad my post was a useful contribution.

I was worried before I reopened the thread in case I had got things wrong/not communicated properly; so I’m glad that, despite its length, it wasn’t disastrous. I really didn’t want it to look like a[n attempted] me-rail; but found I couldn’t effectively write it in the abstract.

On a note that is, I promise, related: you may remember - as it was discussed on here - that in 2021 Girlguiding publicised Ace Week. Racist, classist, ableist, sectarian, homophobic (& no intention of improving any of those things) but they’ll make endless time for utterly inappropriate IDpol. Girls knowing that there is [not] a Mr[s] Brown Owl is as far as their knowledge of volunteers’ [lack of] sexuality should go. They don’t need to know about GenderWoo; nor about the billion flags of the over-privileged; nor should they be coerced into denying reality. Volunteers should not be bullying other volunteers for liking Harry Potter; nor should they break the principle of girl-led guiding to ban Potter from their Programmes.

Stonewall publishing their nonsense “research” (& there’s the connection, yes) will make organisations like Girlguiding feel they were right. That they are fighting some kind of noble moral crusade. And the criticism they received, as publicised by the Independent & the Daily Mail was sheer bigotry. Yet more damage; & on top of their inevitable doubling-down on their male-centring policies; one must question what the next damaging idea they’ll latch on to & promote will be.

qwertyuiopasdfgh · 08/11/2023 12:23

PlanetJanette · 02/11/2023 15:45

How on earth does this make sense?

The woman who conceives a child after a three minute bunk up, then carries the child, gives birth to the child and raises the child is no more worthy or valued than the woman who conceives a child through IVF, then carries the child, gives birth to the child and raises the child.

If you honestly think the value of pregnancy and motherhood lies in the sex that results in conception rather than everything else, that is ridiculous.

I was talking about surrogates, not IVF. Selling women's bodies to make babies for other people.

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