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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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8
duc748 · 02/11/2023 16:24

I agree I'd like to see the GRA scrapped, but for that to happen, there'd need to be a solid cohort of politicians prepared to push that through, cos surely there'd be enormous resistance to it. And with only two (?) Labour MPs prepared to stand up and be counted, and a handful more Tories (OK, some of them ministers, to be fair), I can't see that cohort materialising.

DadJoke · 02/11/2023 16:33

Waitwhat23 · 01/11/2023 18:55

  1. I'm going to take the opinions of people actually versed in law and policy above your own
  2. because of the 'before the law' application of self id, many organisations in Scotland who can offer single sex spaces are not doing so, to the detriment of Scottish women.
  3. what this ruling has absolutely definitely done, as it was to do with representation on public boards, is ensured that public boards can be entirely populated with males. No actual women (the cunty kind) needed at all.

Ain't democracy grand?

You don't have to take my opinion. This is what it says in the judgement:

"[56] Paragraph 28 prescribes an additional exception in the context of provision of separate and single sex services in respect of gender reassignment discrimination:
“(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2) The matters are—
(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.”

This entitles the service provider, subject to a proportionality test, to exclude a transsexual person. That is so whether or not the person holds a GRC, given that they continue to possess the protected characteristic of gender reassignment."

Yes, providers can chose whether or not to exclude trans women from women's spaces, and typically don't.

It's also possible that public boards might be entirely black, entirely Muslim or entirely gay, but it's pretty unlikely, and it's not a problem.

fedupandstuck · 02/11/2023 16:42

From the horses mouth, a direct admission. A public board made up entirely of male people, some in possession of a GRC, is "not a problem" for women.

EasternStandard · 02/11/2023 16:43

Yes, providers can chose whether or not to exclude trans women from women's spaces, and typically don't.

The law is currently for men. That’s why many of us want it changed.

OP posts:
ArthurbellaScott · 02/11/2023 16:53

Text:

It is time to act.

Yesterday the Court of Session in Scotland delivered a shocking verdict in a case brought by grassroots women’s rights group For Women Scotland, and supported by Sex Matters as an intervenor.

The court declared that in the law about sex discrimination and single-sex services, the terms “man” and “woman” do not mean actual sex, but only whether a person has a certificate declaring them to be male or female.
A certificate can be obtained by submitting a few documents that show a person has changed their name for the past two years, together with two doctors’ reports supporting their self-reported feelings of “gender dysphoria”. Being a pregnant woman is no bar to getting a certificate as a “man” and being a rapist is no barrier to getting a certificate as a “woman”. Neither is the certificate forfeit
when a “man” gets pregnant and gives birth or when a “woman” commits indecent exposure or rape.

The Scottish court declared that having a certificate is not simply about relations between the individual and the state in matters such as marriage and pensions, but changes someone’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act, affecting their relations with employers, service-providers, public authorities and other individuals, and even their sexual orientation. The judgment stated that “there
is no such thing as being ‘legally lesbian’ and we have not identified a problem which would require that sex be referable to biology alone”.

This is in stark contrast to what we have been told for more than a decade about
gender-recognition certificates. It means that:

  1. A fully intact man who obtains a certificate can apply to join a women’s association such as a self-help group of survivors of sexual violence, or an association of lesbians, and if he is turned away he can sue for discrimination.
  2. A young woman who obtains a certificate saying she is a man loses all protection against sex discrimination in relation to being female.
  3. A man who obtains a certificate has the right to access services provided for women, from changing-rooms and showers to women’s refuges and single sex wards. Service providers will need to have in-depth knowledge of the law to turn him away. Most will be too afraid and will instead tell women that they must accept him as a woman. Many women willmself-exclude.
  4. A man who gets a certificate will be able to be appointed to a job which is advertised as being just for women, such as providing intimate care at home to elderly or disabled women.
  5. Sporting organisations will be forced to include males with certificates in training, funding and leadership development programmes for women’s sports.
  6. Employers will be told not to think about pregnancy and maternity discrimination as something that happens to women, but instead to “pregnant people” of both sexes.
  7. A gender-recognition certificate is seen as changing a straight man into a lesbian, and a lesbian into a straight man. It fundamentally changes the definition of sexual orientation in the Equality Act.
  8. When it comes to the public sector equality duty, public bodies, including prisons, hospitals and local councils funding refuges, will be told that they should not think of the need of natal women as a group, but only “women” including those who are actually men but who have a certificate.

In several areas there are narrowly drawn exceptions that may provide a defence to employers, public bodies and service-providers that continue to operate with regard to actual sex, and that are willing to take the risk of being sued; but experience shows that few are. Women-only services are disappearing up and down the country.

We do not believe this is what Parliament intended, and we understand it could still be challenged. But it is not right that thousands of individual women and men may again have to fundraise to take this battle on to the Supreme Court.

Nor is it right that the Equality and Human Rights Commission has left it to these self-funding groups to make the legal and human rights arguments.

The judges in the For Women Scotland case had only one day of hearing to consider the question of whether the law on sex discrimination is no longer about sex. They heard no evidence from witnesses. They rightly said in their judgment: “this is an area on which individuals and organisations hold firm, even entrenched views, where there is intense public debate. At its heart are matters of social policy which are best addressed by parliaments.”

Similar statements have been made in every recent court judgment on controversies over women’s rights and transgenderdemands.

Politicians say they know what a woman is. But these are cheap words when those politicians do not step up and protect women’s rights, and the clarity of language, rules and laws that are needed to defend those rights.

In June this year a Westminster Hall debate was held on the proposal to amend the Equality Act to make clear that sex means actual sex. More than 110,000 people signed the petition, and 25 MPs took part. Support for the petition was particularly strong in Scotland, where the Scottish Government’s attempt to relax even further the conditions for grant of a GRC alerted many people to the dangers this would pose for women. The response to the petition showed a real appetite for change.

We call on you now to:

● Commit to publishing a proposal for secondary legislation to clarify the relationship between the Equality Act and the Gender Recognition Act, and to urgently consult on it, with a view to introducing it in the next Parliament.

● Support the development of a post-legislative scrutiny committee in Parliament to consider how the Gender Recognition Act is working in practice, whether it is consistent with women’s rights and whether it needs to be reformed, and how it relates to reserved and devolved powers.

● Hold a public inquiry on the erosion of protection for single-sex services, spaces and data, and the impact of this on safeguarding, which brings together experts and stakeholders from different groups and perspectives and allows all views to be heard.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 02/11/2023 16:55

*You don't have to take my opinion. This is what it says in the judgement:

"[56] Paragraph 28 prescribes an additional exception in the context of provision of separate and single sex services in respect of gender reassignment discrimination:
“(1) A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2) The matters are—
(a) the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;
(b) the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;
(c) the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.”

This entitles the service provider, subject to a proportionality test, to exclude a transsexual person. That is so whether or not the person holds a GRC, given that they continue to possess the protected characteristic of gender reassignment."*

Uh huh

Yes, providers can chose whether or not to exclude trans women from women's spaces, and typically don't.

Yes, and that's a bad thing when it comes to single sex services like RAPE CRISIS SERVICES.

It's also possible that public boards might be entirely black, entirely Muslim or entirely gay, but it's pretty unlikely, and it's not a problem

The challenge was because of legislation relating to gender representation on public boards. Specifically. And at this point, it can be entirely male.

www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2018/4/contents/enacted

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 02/11/2023 16:59

I'd love the GRA to be repealed. But realistically, if its going to happen in the next 5 to 10 years itll be under a labour government. Given the deep-seated misogyny within the labour party - remember starmer is a moderate left winger for gender and he said we shouldnt say women have cervixes, any change could be worse for women and children.

Its horrible, but the best action is to force politicians to justify their decision, expecially in the context of the madness that they are pretending is not going on. Make them spend their time saying that gender ideology is safe, and then have to bring in yet more policy to compensate. Make trans ideology as big a pain in the arse for them as it is for us.

duc748 · 02/11/2023 17:04

That letter might (should?) be also addressed to the Labour Party, as it looks like they will form the next government, and the chances of legislation before a GE must be pretty slim.

Signalbox · 02/11/2023 17:21

Interesting that KPSS are not signatories. I’ve seen KPSS are against clarifying sex to mean bio sex in the EA. I don’t fully understand their argument though. I wonder if it’s that we should be campaigning for full repeal rather than just tinkering round the edges of the existing laws. They were also against the census case which argued for “legal sex” and I agree this was a very short sighted action. We are now stuck with men being able to say that they are female in the census and if self- id ever comes into being we will be right back to square one.

JanesLittleGirl · 02/11/2023 17:27

@DadJoke

Yes, providers can chose whether or not to exclude trans women from women's spaces, and typically don't.

You are, sadly, correct. This leads to the question: why don't they?

There are a few possible answers.

a) Ignorance of what is happening in those spaces. The provider has put signs on the doors saying "Women" and "Men" and expects that those signs will be respected. Unless women complain, the provider is completely unaware that there are disrespectful tow-rags using the facility who care nothing for women.

b) Ignorance of the law. The owners of pubs, clubs and restaurants will have a good working knowledge of the laws and regulations related to their industry but are unlikely to be aware of the Equality Act 2010, Schedule 3, Part 7, Paragraph 28.

c) Fear. What service provider would want the TripAdvisor comments, SM pile-on or TRA demos that would be the result of exercising their right to a single sex exemption?

d) Funding. There are many service providers, particularly in the third sector, that rely on local government or charity funding. Exercising a single sex exemption would likely result in the funding being withdrawn.

e) A deliberate decision. Either the provider is a local authority or similar or it is an organisation where the senior management has outsourced it's thinking to the banana-brains in DEI.

EasternStandard · 02/11/2023 17:29

duc748 · 02/11/2023 17:04

That letter might (should?) be also addressed to the Labour Party, as it looks like they will form the next government, and the chances of legislation before a GE must be pretty slim.

Hopefully it’ll be part of the GE as a vote

It’s a good letter

Waitwhat23 · 02/11/2023 17:35

Signalbox · 02/11/2023 17:21

Interesting that KPSS are not signatories. I’ve seen KPSS are against clarifying sex to mean bio sex in the EA. I don’t fully understand their argument though. I wonder if it’s that we should be campaigning for full repeal rather than just tinkering round the edges of the existing laws. They were also against the census case which argued for “legal sex” and I agree this was a very short sighted action. We are now stuck with men being able to say that they are female in the census and if self- id ever comes into being we will be right back to square one.

They've got a thread on Twitter explaining their stance -

twitter.com/NoXYinXXprisons/status/1720110664855802116

IwantToRetire · 02/11/2023 17:44

This is in stark contrast to what we have been told for more than a decade about
gender-recognition certificates.

Beginning to feel like a broken record, but if those writing the laws hadn't intended the GRC to make someone the opposite sex, then they wouldn't have bothered with the single sex exemptions.

It's really sad that they are still saying this, as it makes them look like they dont understand and doens't help to give credibility to a campaign.

What did they think the single sex ememptions were about?

IwantToRetire · 02/11/2023 17:51

Although I know it is highly unlikely but we need to have the sort of cross party / campaign co-ordinating group, similar to the one that different group created to get the Abortion Act passed.

A lot of quite recent campaigners have rushed in and helped raised the issue but in some instances haven't educated themselves well enough. And worse have not managed and in fact quite arrogantly, have said thinks about women services providers that aren't true and in fact patronising.

Having these groups as part of a joint campaign would give it not only more credibility, but also actual experience of the reality of how the acts impact.

Its the same on FWR. Lots of comments from posters about what womens service providers should or should not do, but no evidence of women being prepared to do the work of supporting local services eg by joining the Management Committees etc..

However much we like to go on about groups being captured etc..

You could equally argue that it is the failure of those to be directly involved. ie the vaccuum created by that absence was what made it so easy for those who wanted to undermine women's spaces could easily fill.

IwantToRetire · 02/11/2023 17:55

“I disagree with the judges' decision today but I genuinely sympathise with the impossible position in which they, and the courts in general, now find themselves. Laws have been passed, and judicial decisions made, on the basis of the most absurd ideas, which have no basis whatsoever in reality…”

“It is as if the Flat Earthers somehow got their doctrines passed into law and the courts then had to reconcile that law with all the other laws on air traffic control, shipping navigation etc which are needed to regulate reality…planes and ships would still be crashing into each other out there in the real world, as well as much other mayhem.”

“So it is with a law that says human beings can change sex. We all need to start again from scratch, and we need to start with the patent absurdity of the Gender Recognition Act 2004.”

Gordon Dangerfield quoted by Neale Harvey on twitter https://twitter.com/JNHanvey/status/1719868424090685497

ArthurbellaScott · 02/11/2023 18:18

I look forward to seeing the campaign, IwantToRetire. When are you launching it?

OP posts:
RhannionKPSS · 02/11/2023 19:35

To answer a question posted above :
my preference would be that we continue to campaign to repeal the GRA, just as I’ve been doing by campaigning with FWS for women’s rights, especially in Scotland.
My post was to point out that’s not something that can be done overnight.

Women shouldn’t need to crowdfund to fight to retain our rights , but that is what we have been doing, and will continue to do for as long as necessary.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/11/2023 20:24

It's also possible that public boards might be entirely black, entirely Muslim or entirely gay, but it's pretty unlikely, and it's not a problem.

That isn't the correct analogy. We are talking about public boards potentially being made up of men, however they identify.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/11/2023 20:47

Interesting that KPSS are not signatories. I’ve seen KPSS are against clarifying sex to mean bio sex in the EA. I don’t fully understand their argument though. I wonder if it’s that we should be campaigning for full repeal rather than just tinkering round the edges of the existing laws. They were also against the census case which argued for “legal sex” and I agree this was a very short sighted action. We are now stuck with men being able to say that they are female in the census and if self- id ever comes into being we will be right back to square one.

Yes I agree. I think there are two camps here. I have always been fairly hardline, and a few years ago only a few of us here on this site were suggesting repealing the GRA, and ploppers used to come on and clutch their pearls about it as if we were completely beyond the pale in even thinking about it, and it was completely unacceptable transphobia.

The other camp is the one FPFW, WPUK and Sex Matters are in, although they don't always agree on other things. That repeal won't be possible so women's rights campaigns must work within the framework of the Equality Act.

NecessaryScene · 02/11/2023 21:03

What did they think the single sex ememptions were about?

I don't understand what you think they're about. I think you're maybe thinking of some of the clarifications to do with "gender reassignment" in there, rather than the single-sex exceptions?

The Equality Act generally bars sex discrimination, along with various other sorts of discrimination.

The single-sex exceptions denote exceptions where sex discrimination is permitted - to create single-sex spaces - contrary to the general "no sex discrimination" rule.

Those are needed regardless of anything to do with the GRA. Without those exceptions the Equality Act would have made single-sex services illegal. Women's sports would not be permitted.

Winnading · 02/11/2023 21:32

RhannionKPSS · 02/11/2023 14:09

Just to point out that it will take a hell of a lot of hard work, time, political will and money to repeal the GRC.

Yes, but here we all are willing to put hands in pockets. I'm good for a few hundred quid right now. I am beyond pissed off and this really needs sorting. Although we should be super careful our money isnt just wasted if labour get in at the next election. We could just be burning our money to keep warm if that happens.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/11/2023 21:51

The single-sex exceptions denote exceptions where sex discrimination is permitted - to create single-sex spaces - contrary to the general "no sex discrimination" rule.

Those are needed regardless of anything to do with the GRA. Without those exceptions the Equality Act would have made single-sex services illegal. Women's sports would not be permitted.

What @NecessaryScene said.

BezMills · 03/11/2023 04:14

Signalbox · 02/11/2023 15:23

A bit more analysis from Michael Foran...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1720049981338390814.html

This was my favourite bit

I don’t think my comments in that piece aged badly at all. I was clear where the ambiguity lay and wrote without accusing my interlocutor of being an ideologically motivated hack with a mediocre grasp of the law and a propensity to hurl insults rather than provide insight:

southbiscay · 03/11/2023 07:27

The idea of repealing the GRA still sits outside the Overton window, but the window has moved in that direction for many reasons to the extent that repeal no longer considered an extreme position.

It is not currently politically possible and a change to a Labour government won't help. (Indeed on a free vote there wouldn't be anything like a majority of all MPs in favour right now.). However, voices calling for repeal publicly are now important and are no longer outside the bounds of 'acceptability'. The very act of doing so will further cement and normalise the idea.

The FWS2 ruling, whilst a disaster in some ways, will help in others including strengthening the idea of GRA repeal. Never waste a crisis.

I have concerns over the Sex Matters approach and its possible unintended consequences, whilst at the same time understanding that, in terms of politics being the art of the possible, their approach has a greater chance of success in the short term. But on balance I think it is the wrong approach.

Until we remove the legal untruths that the GRA facilitates we will always be one step behind. At the same time the gender reassignment protected characteristic also needs to go to be replaced by the existing characteristic of belief. After all, if sex immutability is now a protected belief then sex mutability should not have a higher status.