For Women Scotland have lost their appeal

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://forwomen.scot/01/11/2023/court-decision-reclaiming-motion/

The court rules that in some cases, men with a GRC are women.

Whatever is most advantageous in any given context.

Yes.

Same old patriarchy in different clothes.

I'm not sure if I'm following it completely. Are they saying that only a GRC 'changes' sex - not self-id. But, with self-id, Scotland has made a material difference to the meaning of sex and the protected characteristics which means the s35 challenge has more evidence to support that the ScotGov has overstepped. So although this judgement is disappointing and frustrating for Scotland. It might make it easier for WM to intervene?

So self ID is definitely NOT enough. That's good to have that confirmed at least.

The myth that a GRC is just an admin exercise can hardly be maintained in light of this result. Surely the SG can’t win the S35 case off the back of this?

can FWS do anything more now?

The reality of course being that you can't ask to see a GRC. None of this ever works functionally outside of a court room.

Sorry cross post WinnieFosterFights.

Another point of significance here in this judgment is the upholding of what has long been the clear position that if you don’t have a GRC you are legally considered to be your biological sex and have no right to use single sex services intended for the opposite sex.

As I understand it, EHRC have specifically stated that a GRC holder can still be excluded from services that have had single sex exemptions applied.

Presumably it could go to the UK Supreme Court.

This is Scottish Prison Services stance. They claim that even with a GRC a male can be risk assessed and excluded from a women's prison - but perhaps that's on the basis of 'risk' rather than biological sex. Even if the 'risk' is because he is male.

What sex is Schrodinger's cat?

They can take it to the Supreme court but the s35 case may mean they don't have to.

Is transwomale a typo or an actual thing?

😳

https://twitter.com/ForWomenScot/status/1719716513639260248?s=19

Well there we are, then.

Feck.

Michael Foran's thread is good. It really makes it clear that the new gender reform bill in Scotland means that the Equality Act operates differently in Scotland and England/Wales.

I don't think this ruling is necessarily bad news. I think there are only about 6,000 people with a GRC in the whole of the UK, so the number who benefit from the ruling (at the moment) is tiny. Obviously it shows that if you make it easier to get a GRC, then you significantly undermine the protections afforded to women in the Equality Act.

So the obvious step for politicians now is to amend the Equality Act to make it clear that "sex" means "biological sex" not "legal sex". They really need to get a shift on and do that.

Another point of significance here in this judgment is the upholding of what has long been the clear position that if you don’t have a GRC you are legally considered to be your biological sex and have no right to use single sex services intended for the opposite sex.

Perhaps there's "no right", whatever that might be, but that doesn't mean that if someone excludes a man self-IDing as a woman, they're not going to be facing the risk of a discrimination case over the PC case of gender reassignment, which doesn't require a GRC.

To put this another way, the intersections of the various laws creates such a mess that unless there's law reform, each and every point has to be won by fighting a legal case costing tens of thousands of pounds but even that won't work because some of those cases will result in perverse judgments because of a captured (in part) judiciary.

Its good that the PC of GR does not mean that the person should be treated as if they were the opposite sex. That means that those men shouldnt be in spaces marked for women. It questions the need for state issued identification in the wrong sex, too. A review of the process is needed, at least.

We need a way to differentiate between a man, a man with the PC of GR, and a man with a GRC.

We need clarification when holding a GRC allows a man to be treated as if he were a woman. Is it in certain SSE, or is it certain men with GRC?

We also need clarity about the intention of the GRA. Was it to allow men who have a GRC to be seen as woman for admin purposes- pensions for example, or was it more? Are politicians going to state that the GRC is intended to make everyone see a man as a woman?

But if it's a hate crime or incident to ask if someone has a GRC then in reality anyone can claim access to all spaces.

Lets assume the ruling is correct. What isnt consiered is that having a GRC is a secret and no one is permitted ask a person if they have one. So de faco anyone who says they are a woman has to be treated as though they have one

I don’t see this as a complete disaster, what it is is a shit show, However , it lays out clearly that any “trans “ woman, without a GRC is still is, and remains a man, any “trans” man , without a GRC is , and remains, a woman.

Repeal the GRC, it’s a lie and always has been.

Perhaps based on this, it needs to be flipped to assuming that one is not held unless it is produced and evidenced.

But again, practically....

Really this just boils down to 'this is an unholy fucking mess that doesn't work'.

100% Frood.

Someone needs to sort this mess out.

EHRC says it's up to the government.
Scottish High Court says it's up to the government.

That's assuming the purpose of the GRA was to force society to see and treat a man as a woman? Politicians need to clarify that this was their intent.

Off the top of my head, there were 48,000 people identifying as trans in England and Wales on the census, but fewer than 7,500 have a GRC. So by those numbers, we have to assume that a man with the PC of GR does not have a GRC.

If the government want a man with a GRC to be treated as if they are a woman, but a man without a GRC shouldn't be treated as a woman, we need a way of differentiating them. We cant use looks, we cant use passport or driving licence, we cant use GRC. Anyone can purchase any birth certificate.

So its up to the courts and politicians to clarify.

They don't need to say anything, do they?

Anyone can use any space.

There is no such thing as single sex spaces anymore. If males can use women's spaces if they have a bit of paper, and nobody is allowed to ask for the bit of paper:

Everything is mixed sex.