Wales - Threat of Self ID for politicians being snuck in by the back door

[fromorbit]

Leak reveals an attempt to allow political men to self identify as women

Row looms as Welsh Government plans to allow self-identifying transwomen to stand in Senedd elections as females
https://nation.cymru/news/row-looms-as-welsh-government-plans-to-allow-self-identifying-transwomen-to-stand-in-senedd-elections-as-females/

Congrats to Women's Rights Network Wales for spilling the beans.

It was an early draft apparently so possibly a basic look by a lawyer might have got it changed in later ones. In a way I hope they press on with it as the row will be glorious.

This policy seems odd do we need self ID after all we all know Wales is the most Trans friendly place in the UK for politicians.. We know Welsh Trans politicians can be elected here. We are the only the country to ever have a Trans MP - Jamie Wallis, the Tory MP for Bridgend of car crash in dress and pearls fame. Although obviously he was in the closet when elected it amazing to see his confidence and it is great to see transness at a high level. Though it seems he is planning to move to England.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/bridgend-conservative-mp-jamie-wallis-27959338

Perhaps Jamie would like to stand for the Senedd.

[ChishiyaBat]

I wish I was shocked, but i'm not, as a valleys woman this makes me so angry!

[ChishiyaBat]

Read this earlier...

https://www.womensrights.network/post/do-women-belong-in-welsh-government-only-the-compliant-ones

[ResisterRex]

WRN Wales thread

x.com/wrnwales/status/1718534436772335895?s=48&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Time to write to MPs again. They can't have the powers to do this. Yet there must be a group that's adamant on pushing it through any which way.

[ChishiyaBat]

@ResisterRex i'll write to mine, but I wouldn't know what to say.

[ResisterRex]

If your MP is not a minister, you can ask them to submit a written question or to ask an oral question, about what powers the Welsh Government has with respect to the planned Gender Quotas Bill.

[ChishiyaBat]

Thank you so much @ResisterRex i'll check out whether my mp is a minister or not.

[fromorbit]

@ChishiyaBat

Read this earlier...

https://www.womensrights.network/post/do-women-belong-in-welsh-government-only-the-compliant-ones

Great report, but infuriating.

Re self id
Also write to media and BBC they might cover it if we push hard enough.

[ChishiyaBat]

That is a good idea @fromorbit

[Draigosaurus]

This policy seems odd, do we need self ID, after all we all know Wales is the most Trans friendly place in the UK for politicians.. We know Welsh Trans politicians can be elected here. We are the only the country to ever have a Trans MP - Jamie Wallis, the Tory MP for Bridgend of car crash in dress and pearls fame. 

The only reason this is needed is fromorbit is firstly: because Welsh Labour want to change to a party list system instead of a constituency candidate system in the next Senedd elections, to ensure that it’s political parties which control who gets elected rather than constituents controlling that, and to ensure that any list member who defects to another party mid term (like Ash Regan has just done in Scotland) gets booted out of the Senedd and replaced by whoever’s next on that party’s list without triggering a by-election, and without the party they’ve defected to benefiting from their defection (like Alba has just done). In other words Welsh Labour, in collaboration with Plaid Cymru, want to make sure that all candidates’ first and only loyalty is to the party which puts their name on the list, not to constituents/ voters. I haven’t seen any of the opposition parties point out how anti democratic that is. Presumably because they are quite keen on political parties having that control too.

And then secondly: because Welsh Labour want to make sure that the 50% of the population who are female are represented in the Senedd at those next elections. But because they won’t/can’t tackle the reasons why women might be less likely to seek election, less likely to be selected as a candidate by a political party, or less likely to be elected if they are selected, they have gone into their default mode of “let’s pass a law about it”. So once you decide that you are going to pass a law that says that half of political party candidates on a list must be women, then you have to define in that law who gets to be eligible for inclusion in the “woman” half of the list.

The huge irony of course is that, whilst they are wholly committed to their (imo completely sincere) wish for women to be represented, they are also at the very same time even more strongly committed to their total refusal to be truthful about biology and are aggressively self-righteous about their self-perception as “progressive” and morally superior to any individual, group, or political party who stands up for the right of female humans to be recognised as women and for women to be recognised as a group that never includes males.

To be able to continue to regard themselves as the good guys whilst simultaneously being dishonest with the electorate, Welsh Labour have to exclude and refuse to engage with any group which disagrees with them, and also to defame and denigrate them as ignorant, bigoted, far right adjacent, and engaging in a culture war. Referring to opponents as shrill is another tactic.

Another point to bear in mind is that: even if they avoided the whole “what’s a woman” question by using “female” and “male” in the legislation, the ‘what about a person with a GRC question?’ would still arise.

TLDR version: i) legally enforced electoral candidate quotas are a stupid and lazy ‘solution’; ii) they’ve brought this mess on themselves iii) they are unlikely to back down.

[ResisterRex]

In the Telegraph

Wales redefines women to include transgender

digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1504/reader/reader.html?social#!preferred/0/package/1504/pub/1504/page/35/article/NaN

[ArthurbellaScott]

In other words Welsh Labour, in collaboration with Plaid Cymru, want to make sure that all candidates’ first and only loyalty is to the party which puts their name on the list, not to constituents/ voters. 

Holy Fuck!

[Woman2023]

@ArthurbellaScott

In other words Welsh Labour, in collaboration with Plaid Cymru, want to make sure that all candidates’ first and only loyalty is to the party which puts their name on the list, not to constituents/ voters. 

Holy Fuck!

Holy fuck indeed.

We saw how lists can be manipulated in Scotland, where 'difficult' MSPs in the SNP suddenly found their area was designated for a group they didn't belong to as priority, so they fell further down the list.

I know first past the post is a dodgy electoral system but lots of aspects of proportional representation seem to take decisions away from the electorate.

[Woman2023]

This bit of the draft bill is crazy:

“A constituency returning officer may not challenge or make any enquiry in relation to a statement made by a candidate in accordance with an order under Section 13 that the candidate is a woman.”
Not just that someone can self-id but it can't be challenged. The bill which is supposed to ensure 'gender equality' has a clause which says the gender statement is valid no matter what.

Bonkers!

[Hoardasurass]

The Scottish government tried this with their gender representation Bill and lost on appeal a transwomen can not be classed as a woman as they are legally men, unless they have a grc (the grc bit is under appeal itself (awaiting judgment)) so this should be a non starter due to legal president.
Surely they can't think that there will be a different outcome when this gets to crt, that's madness.

[ArthurbellaScott]

@Woman2023

Holy fuck indeed.

We saw how lists can be manipulated in Scotland, where 'difficult' MSPs in the SNP suddenly found their area was designated for a group they didn't belong to as priority, so they fell further down the list.

I know first past the post is a dodgy electoral system but lots of aspects of proportional representation seem to take decisions away from the electorate.

Yes. The PR system we have in place in Scotland means it's virtually impossible to get rid of someone.

But this change in Wales seems to go against the whole principle of voting for a candidate. They may as well get rid of candidates and just have parties on the ballot by their logic.

[Freysimo]

Mark Drakeford has said his starting point is that trans women are women. Plaid are the same. Not much hope for the women of Wales.

[ArthurbellaScott]

Seems Welsh, Irish and Scots women are going to end up being the ones who come off worst from genderism. I'm getting flashbacks to the Poll Tax.

[RoyalCorgi]

It was an early draft apparently so possibly a basic look by a lawyer might have got it changed in later ones. In a way I hope they press on with it as the row will be glorious.

Surely what they are proposing is illegal? The Equality Act enables employers or providers to give priority to members of people from a person with a protected characteristic that is under-represented. So for example, a fire service that was largely made up of white men could say that it welcomed applications from women or Black people.

So they could say that they are going to give priority to women. Or they could even say they are going to give priority to trans people. But what they can't legally say is that they are going to give priority to women and transwomen, because that would exclude transmen.

[ArthurbellaScott]

@RoyalCorgi

It was an early draft apparently so possibly a basic look by a lawyer might have got it changed in later ones. In a way I hope they press on with it as the row will be glorious.

Surely what they are proposing is illegal? The Equality Act enables employers or providers to give priority to members of people from a person with a protected characteristic that is under-represented. So for example, a fire service that was largely made up of white men could say that it welcomed applications from women or Black people.

So they could say that they are going to give priority to women. Or they could even say they are going to give priority to trans people. But what they can't legally say is that they are going to give priority to women and transwomen, because that would exclude transmen.

This is exactly the argument being hashed out in Scottish courts right now, as Hoard says upthread.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://forwomen.scot/02/10/2023/note-of-argument/

[AlphaTransWoman]

Why not just treat everyone the same and stop worrying about who is what gender?

[Rudderneck]

@ArthurbellaScott

In other words Welsh Labour, in collaboration with Plaid Cymru, want to make sure that all candidates’ first and only loyalty is to the party which puts their name on the list, not to constituents/ voters. 

Holy Fuck!

I wish more people would realize this is what happens with proportional representation.

[Rudderneck]

@AlphaTransWoman

Why not just treat everyone the same and stop worrying about who is what gender?

I think that's what should happen.

It's not a bad thing to recognize if some groups are under-represented, to try and figure out what the mechanism is behind that, and possibly adress it. But I am not convinced that in the long term giving institutional preference to any group for any reason is a good idea.

[ArthurbellaScott]

@AlphaTransWoman

Why not just treat everyone the same and stop worrying about who is what gender?

Gosh, yes, what is feminism even for?!

[AlphaTransWoman]

@Rudderneck

I think that's what should happen.

It's not a bad thing to recognize if some groups are under-represented, to try and figure out what the mechanism is behind that, and possibly adress it. But I am not convinced that in the long term giving institutional preference to any group for any reason is a good idea.

This would solve a lot of problems in terms of the "who counts as a woman" debate.