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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wales - Threat of Self ID for politicians being snuck in by the back door

78 replies

fromorbit · 29/10/2023 15:21

Leak reveals an attempt to allow political men to self identify as women

Row looms as Welsh Government plans to allow self-identifying transwomen to stand in Senedd elections as females
https://nation.cymru/news/row-looms-as-welsh-government-plans-to-allow-self-identifying-transwomen-to-stand-in-senedd-elections-as-females/

Congrats to Women's Rights Network Wales for spilling the beans.

It was an early draft apparently so possibly a basic look by a lawyer might have got it changed in later ones. In a way I hope they press on with it as the row will be glorious.

This policy seems odd do we need self ID after all we all know Wales is the most Trans friendly place in the UK for politicians.. We know Welsh Trans politicians can be elected here. We are the only the country to ever have a Trans MP - Jamie Wallis, the Tory MP for Bridgend of car crash in dress and pearls fame. Although obviously he was in the closet when elected it amazing to see his confidence and it is great to see transness at a high level. Though it seems he is planning to move to England.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/bridgend-conservative-mp-jamie-wallis-27959338

Perhaps Jamie would like to stand for the Senedd.

Row looms as Welsh Government plans to allow self-identifying transwomen to stand in Senedd elections as females

Martin Shipton The Welsh Government is setting itself on a potential collision course with the UK Government after deciding to allow people to self-identify their gender when standing as candidates for the Senedd. Plans to increase the number of Senedd...

https://nation.cymru/news/row-looms-as-welsh-government-plans-to-allow-self-identifying-transwomen-to-stand-in-senedd-elections-as-females

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Draigosaurus · 30/10/2023 23:59

GrumpyPanda · 30/10/2023 18:14

@Draigosaurus

The only reason this is needed is fromorbitis firstly: because Welsh Labour want to change to a party list system instead of a constituency candidate system in the next Senedd elections, to ensure that it’s political parties which control who gets elected rather than constituents controlling that, and to ensure that any list member who defects to another party mid term (like Ash Regan has just done in Scotland) gets booted out of the Senedd and replaced by whoever’s next on that party’s list without triggering a by-election, and without the party they’ve defected to benefiting from their defection (like Alba has just done). In other words Welsh Labour, in collaboration with Plaid Cymru, want to make sure that all candidates’ first and only loyalty is to the party which puts their name on the list, not to constituents/ voters. I haven’t seen any of the opposition parties point out how anti democratic that is. Presumably because they are quite keen on political parties having that control too.

Totally with you and the other vipers on the SelfID aspect. But as a mumsnetter living in a country ruled by proportional representation just wanted to point out this would be very unusual for a PR system. The usual norm for elected members in a PR system, even if they got in on a party list, is to be accountable to voters and their own conscience, not - for instance - to party whips. They could if they wanted (and didn't care about party standing, committee assignments etc) vote freely for policies completely opposed to core party policies. They also normally retain their seats if they resign/are excluded from the party. This is about to happen on a grand scale to the German Left Party which is about to see a quarter of its MRS - all elected through the party list - break away and as a result will go below the numerical threshold required for parliamentary privileges as an official party "fraktion". Also happens continuously, at least with individual MEPs, in the European Parliament.

Hi Grumpy

I’m not an expert on proportional representation. So I may have misunderstood the detail on how aspects of it will work.

Here’s the info on the bill which covers the new constituencies and closed list system.

https://www.gov.wales/senedd-reform

Instead of having 40 FPTP members plus five electoral regions with four list members each, there’ll be 16 electoral areas with six members each.

Wales has 22 local authorities so that gives you an idea of the size of the 16 new so-called “constituencies”.

Draigosaurus · 31/10/2023 00:10

“Yes the bill is is running into big issues due to sexism in Welsh politics it is very apparent I agree especially in Labour. Weird how the Tories can get a bunch of women in the Senedd yet somehow the Labour party struggles to do the same consistently after a good start.”

I don’t understand that comment fromorbit.

There are more women ministers/ deputy ministers than men in the Welsh Labour Government.

https://www.gov.wales/cabinet-members-and-ministers

Eight women, five men.

SaffronSpice · 31/10/2023 08:56

PR means you are representing the party - your name is not even on the ballot only your party is. The only way voters can avoid someone, the party has decided should be on the list, being elected is to avoid that party completely. For example in Scotland Maggie Chapman is a Green MSP and member of the Scottish Government. Her name did not appear on any ballot and she got only 6% of the regional vote.

VWdieselnightmare · 31/10/2023 15:40

I've just had a chat with someone who used to work for/ with the Welsh government and and she's written to all five of her MSs* and to the people she thinks are in line for the leadership, asking for clarity.

She asks:
What mandate does the Welsh government have to introduce self-ID in Wales and is this actually something that can be devolved to them?

Why, if this is not something that can actually be carried out (see the example of Scotland), time and money are being wasted and the goodwill of many Labour voters being squandered?

Was this issue in the Labour manifesto? If not, who campaigned for it and how did this become included in a Bill about electoral reform?

How will this aspect of the Bill impact upon the Equality Act 2000, which specifically talks about sex as a protected characteristic? Would it be possible to have access to records of any debate or meetings that were held to discuss this? Are there minutes of meetings that can be examined to clarify the process by which this proposal was adopted?

Has an Equalities Impact Assessment been carried out and where can those interested in this matter find it and read it for themselves?

I thought these might be useful questions for a LOT of people to start asking.

*Apparently every voter in Wales has one direct constituency MS (representative in the Senedd) and four others, randomly from around Wales, who also act as their representatives and should be lobbied. Those in Wales can find out who their other MSs are by checking the government website.

EnfysPreseli · 31/10/2023 16:49

Draigosaurus · 31/10/2023 00:10

“Yes the bill is is running into big issues due to sexism in Welsh politics it is very apparent I agree especially in Labour. Weird how the Tories can get a bunch of women in the Senedd yet somehow the Labour party struggles to do the same consistently after a good start.”

I don’t understand that comment fromorbit.

There are more women ministers/ deputy ministers than men in the Welsh Labour Government.

https://www.gov.wales/cabinet-members-and-ministers

Eight women, five men.

There have been a series of media stories and scandals over the last 5 years or so where sexism and misogyny have been an issue. The fact that there are more female than male ministers in the Welsh Government is neither here nor there really.

As far as we can tell not one of them is defending women and girls' rights and Hannah Blythyn and Jane Hutt in particular are happy to betray us. The Cabinet posts really feels like window dressing. No more a feminist government (which they used to claim) than the UK Government was under Thatcher.

It's another reason to be very sceptical about quotas for women MSs. In 2003 there were 50:50 male and female AMs. Since then, and despite a huge amount of public money going into allegedly 'women's organisations' like Chwarae Teg, WEN etc, we've gone backwards. We wouldn't need such quotas if Welsh Government and the Senedd weren't so blinkered about what encourages political participation and didn't treat women's rights as collateral damage in their quest to keep the vipers in Pride Cymru and Stonewall, and within their own parties, happy.

Freedia · 31/10/2023 17:09

I have a feeling that next year feminists are going to help elect a Labour government at the national level then spend the next four or five years outraged and surprised that Labour MPs in Westminster vote exactly like Labour MSPs do in Holyrood and Labour in government in Westminster do exactly the same sort of things that Labour in government do in Wales. I mean who could imagined that or see that coming?

Draigosaurus · 31/10/2023 17:22

Apparently every voter in Wales has one direct constituency MS (representative in the Senedd) and four others, randomly from around Wales*, who also act as their representatives and should be lobbied. Those in Wales can find out who their other MSs are by checking the government website.”

That’s not quite right. The four others are the regional list members for the electoral region your FPTP constituency is in. It’s not one all-Wales list of 20 PR seats It’s five regional PR lists of four seats per region.

In Senedd elections, every voter has two votes. First a constituency vote which is first past the post. There are 40 of those constituencies. Secondly, a regional list vote, for the electoral region your constituency is located in. North Wales. Mid Wales. South East Wales etc. There are five electoral regions. There are four seats in each electoral region. Twenty in total. The regional list seats are the proportional representation seats. Voters can use their two votes to vote for two different parties.

The way the PR system used works is: the regional list seats are allocated by calculating which political party has the biggest mismatch between its percentage share of the votes cast and the percentage share of the FPTP seats in that region, and giving that party the first list seat. Then after the first list seat has been allocated for the region, repeating the calculation with the allocated list seat added to the FPTP seats in order to work out which party now has the biggest mismatch. And same again for the third and fourth list seats. So for example the conservatives might be entitled to the first list seat, then plaid might be entitled to the second list seat, then the conservatives the third list seat, then UKIP or the Lib Dems the fourth list seat.

Mid Wales is the electoral region where Labour would get a list seat via proportional representation - because that’s the region where they don’t dominate the FPTP constituency seats. They wouldn’t get a list seat in the other electoral regions because they’d already have gained their “share” of seats via the FPTP constituency votes.

Candidates are no longer permitted to stand in a constituency and also be included on the regional list seat. So for example, Plaid might decide that eg Helen Mary Jones must stand for election in a swing constituency, so if she loses, she’s out of the Senedd, whilst deciding that eg Adam Price should be top of their list for an electoral region where Plaid is guaranteed to get a list seat.

Chersfrozenface · 11/03/2024 17:53

Remember this?

Well, they're still trying. But this time they're trying to keep the quiet bit quiet.

Even the BBC says "A leaked draft of the legislation had suggested that the bill would specify that a woman would include a transgender woman, including someone planning gender reassignment.

"No such clause is in the version of the bill published on Monday. It is understood that it will be a matter for individual candidates to determine if they state whether they are a woman or not - effectively self-certifying."

My bolding.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-68535509

Senedd in the evening

Politician gender quotas not in Senedd powers - presiding officer

Party candidates will be required to be at least 50% women, but the plans face legal questions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-68535509

fromorbit · 11/03/2024 18:06

Well if even the BBC is wise to the sneak attempt to get self ID through perhaps it will get more attention to this issue in Wales finally.

OP posts:
fromorbit · 11/03/2024 18:12

Thinking about it this is such a dumb idea that it is kind of a gift to our side. You are planning to do something blatantly illegal in the vague hope that anyone in Wales who knows what a women is, will just sit there and do nothing.

News flash we can always take the Welsh Government to court like Scottish Women did. Easy win. Get your gardening tools ready folks.

OP posts:
RainWithSunnySpells · 11/03/2024 18:35

Get your gardening tools ready folks.

Ready!

fromorbit · 11/03/2024 19:15

Women's Rights Network - Wales have responded in a thread with a full analysis of what is going on. Yup, it is clear from the text of the act that it paves the way for a Senedd full of "women" like the "trans" MP for Bridgend. We already can see what the future of "woman" politicians in Wales looks like and guess what we are not impressed.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1767225596520624256.html

Ends with defiance:

We ask that;
The Secretary of State for Wales @DavidTCDavies intervene.
As highlighted in Scotland, this unlawful move cannot stand.
We are as ready to challenge this as our Scottish sisters were.

Needless to say there are plenty of others ready to back a court case. You will lose and your agenda the elimination of women's rights will be exposed.

Thread by @WRNWales on Thread Reader App

@WRNWales: BREAKING NEWS - @WelshGovernment learnt NOTHING from their failed Gender Quotas Bill that attempted to introduce self ID for electoral lists. Today, they published a new Bill that AGAIN continues their fo...…

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1767225596520624256.html

OP posts:
fromorbit · 11/03/2024 21:48

Welsh Tories are weighing in.

Darren Millar MS
We are opposing this legislation, which the Senedd does not have the powers to implement.

https://twitter.com/DarrenMillarMS

OP posts:
fromorbit · 12/03/2024 08:39

This is so dumb. The Senedd's own official assessment of the bill concludes it is illegal.

https://research.senedd.wales/research-articles/senedd-cymru-electoral-candidate-lists-bill-delivering-a-gender-balanced-parliament/

The fight is on.

Merched Cymru

This decision by the Senedd's @y Llywydd comes as no surprise. What does come as a surprise is the stubborn determination of @WelshGovernment to, against advice, use this Bill as a vehicle to get gender self-ID onto the statute books, and to prioritise 'gender identity' over sex.

The Impact Assessment leaves us in no doubt which protected characteristic @WelshGovernment is wringing its hands about. It's not sex. And should this Bill become law it will be to the detriment of actual women and girls. Wasting government resources on this instead of initiatives to help women and girls (and other minoritised groups) overcome barriers to participation in public life is bad enough. Now that Elin Ceredigion
has given her view, it's very unclear how Welsh Government can justify wasting Senedd Wales time by pursuing this Bill.

Welsh Government is already experiencing a backlash to several of its other flagship policies. Quite why it is so wedded to a set of activist demands, despite a lack of evidence or even common sense, is almost impossible to understand.

Welsh #WomenWontWheesht. We will fight.

Labour Women's Declaration Cymru

Seems there's a sleight of hand here by the Senedd, in attempting to erase women's rights and subvert the EA.

We applaud the integrity of the @yLlywydd, Da iawn!!

Pretty balanced article from Nation Cymru.

Legal battle looms over Senedd gender balance Bill
https://nation.cymru/news/legal-battle-looms-over-senedd-gender-balance-bill/

Even Wales online questions it:

Plans for gender quota at Senedd thrown into doubt
According to the Senedd's presiding officer, Elin Jones MS, the Welsh Parliament does not have the power to pass the law, which would see an increase in the proportion of female-elected members
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/plans-gender-quota-senedd-thrown-28798465

Legal battle looms over Senedd gender balance Bill

Martin Shipton The Welsh Government is heading for a legal battle over its Senedd reform package after a women’s rights group said it would go to court over plans to allow transgender women without a medical certificate to identify as women. In an unpr...

https://nation.cymru/news/legal-battle-looms-over-senedd-gender-balance-bill

OP posts:
WelshSerafina · 12/03/2024 14:34

Buckle up women of Wales!
The Senedd presiding officer has agreed this Bill has no legislative competence. This is unprecedented territory now.
The Welsh Govt spokeswoman disagrees with her.
This will go to a cross party committee now.
If they persist in trying to force this through regardless, will the UK Attorney General then step in?
WRN Wales are clear they will see them in court. That might not be a bad thing.

Draigosaurus · 12/03/2024 20:01

Labour Women's Declaration Cymru
^^
Seems there's a sleight of hand here by the Senedd, in attempting to erase women's rights and subvert the EA.”

So the Labour Women’s Declaration Cymru don’t understand the difference between the Senedd (Welsh Parliament) and the Welsh Government? It’s the Welsh Government trying to get this through the Welsh Parliament and onto the law books.

ArthurbellaScott · 12/03/2024 20:05
Deer Popcorn GIF

.

fromorbit · 12/03/2024 20:40

ArthurbellaScott · 12/03/2024 20:05

.

You will need more popcorn.

Darren Millar Tory MS raised a bunch of stuff in the Senedd today.

In terms of the purpose of the Bill, it quite clearly is to promote opportunities for women. It sits firmly within the equalities section of law, which is reserved to the UK Parliament, and it doesn't actually deliver on the promise that was made by the former leader of Plaid Cymru and the First Minister when they said very clearly that they will introduce mandatory zipping on lists. There's no mandatory zipping required on these particular lists according to the Bill that's in front of us today, because, as you will know, Minister, the Bill provides for lists to be entirely made up of women but not entirely made up of men. There's no equality there. There's no requirement for it to be zipped in a particular way. The one thing that it does prevent is two men appearing in succession on a list. That's the only thing it prevents. It doesn't introduce any kind of zipping, which is against the principle that was set out by the First Minister in the joint statement with the leader of Plaid Cymru back in May 2022, and, indeed, just last year, when the First Minister was wanting to make progress on the whole issue of Senedd reform. The Bill also does not even define what a woman actually is, and I would ask you, Minister—perhaps you can tell us what a woman is, because, as far as I can see, it is allowing people to self-identify whether they consider themselves to be a woman or not. There’s no sanction on the face of the Bill for those who claim to be a woman who clearly are not, for example, which also seems to be extraordinary.
137
So, it amounts to self-ID via the back door. We don’t have the competence to be able to deliver. You’re curtailing the scrutiny, even though you say you’re trying to improve the scrutiny processes of the Senedd. You’ve put in here no requirement for—and I believe that we should have this requirement, by the way—. There’s no statutory requirement for diversity strategies on political parties. I’d welcome that. I think that’s a good, positive thing you could have put into the Bill, but didn’t bother with, in spite of the fact that that was also a recommendation from the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform. So, this is all over the place. I don’t think that it should see the time of day. I would question the Welsh Government’s rationale for bringing it forward.
138
And one final question if I may—and thank you for giving me the opportunity to scrutinise this, Llywydd—and that is on the subject of costs. I’ve looked through the explanatory memorandum and it suggests minimal costs will be associated with this, but we all know that certainly won’t be the case, because there’ll be significant legal challenges if this Bill goes forward, not least, probably, in the Supreme Court, and we all know how expensive those things are. So, can you tell us whether there’s an estimate of the costs, whether you’ve made any provision as a Welsh Government for those sorts of costs? And can you also tell us what the costs of bringing this forward today have been so far, in terms of the costs of legal advice and other work that has been undertaken by the Welsh Government around the legislative competence? Because when I look in the explanatory memorandum, it is very telling. There’s no information on legislative competence other than a single sentence—a single sentence—on an otherwise completely blank page. And given that that’s the biggest question mark that people have over this Bill, you would have thought that you’d set out a little bit more information than a single sentence saying that, in your view, it’s in competence.
https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/13743#C575491

No answers to any of it really in reply. Especially the fact the Welsh Government will be taken to court and will lose.

However, this clown car continuing is definitely going to help in the end because like in Scotland and Eire eventually it will crash into the big barricade women will build.

Plenary 12/03/2024 - Welsh Parliament

The Welsh Parliament is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people.

https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/13743#C575491

OP posts:
fromorbit · 23/03/2024 21:09

The British government has called Gething's bluff. Amazing no-one else is covering this.

Now, in a letter that Nation.Cymru understands was drafted by Whitehall lawyers, Welsh Secretary David TC Davies has written to Mr Gething expressing his “grave concern” about the situation and hinting heavily that the UK Government may use its powers to intervene and block the Bill.

Vaughan Gething faces constitutional battle over Senedd gender balance Bill
https://nation.cymru/news/vaughan-gething-faces-constitutional-battle-over-senedd-gender-balance-bill/

This could wreck Welsh Labour just as it did the SNP. Just so Labour can have a 100% males Senedd.

Vaughan Gething faces constitutional battle over Senedd gender balance Bill

Martin Shipton New First Minister Vaughan Gething is facing his first major constitutional clash with the UK Government over a controversial Bill that would enforce a gender-balanced Senedd by law and allow election candidates to self-identify as the g...

https://nation.cymru/news/vaughan-gething-faces-constitutional-battle-over-senedd-gender-balance-bill

OP posts:
ADoggyDogWorld · 23/03/2024 21:26

What a bunch of numpties.

ADoggyDogWorld · 23/03/2024 21:26

Actuall, what IS the collective noun for numpties?

JanesLittleGirl · 23/03/2024 21:59

ADoggyDogWorld · 23/03/2024 21:26

Actuall, what IS the collective noun for numpties?

A fuckwittery of numpties?

IcakethereforeIam · 23/03/2024 22:35

A senedd?

Apologies, I know it's not all of them.

WelshSerafina · 23/03/2024 23:05

UK Govt will definitely intervene. Welsh Govt cannot pass this into law, they need UK Gov to sign off on it.
Given the Welsh Sec of State’s comments, it’s clear this may be his first official salvo on the Bill, but he’ll certainly stop this Bill in its tracks. Cue histrionics from the Welsh Govt.
And if UK Govt don’t, then women’s groups will legally challenge.
This is great for Wales - the lunacy of the administration here has gone unnoticed outside of Wales so far and needs wider exposure.
Gething now has a choice - prepare for an expensive but doomed performative legal battle - or cut and run at consultation stage. He could announce a ‘fresh start’ - but given he wasn’t the choice of his peers in the Senedd, this may means he loses close political support.
Grab the popcorn, this will be interesting.

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