Page 3 | Polly Toynbee asks why so many women are undecided how to vote?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 2023-10-27T13:01:44+00:00

[[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/27/female-voters-undecided-labour-rachel-reeves https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/27/female-voters-undecided-labour-rachel-reeves]] not even a passing reference to the huge elephant in the room.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 27/10/2023 20:11

I wasn't shocked by this article, because I have twitter, where party activists people like Polly let their innermost contempt spill all the time. It's just the first time I saw it printed in the Guardian.

I have come to understand that today's professional Labour/Labour-adjacent types is no longer think it is their job to represent and serve the working classes in government.

Instead, they think it is the working classes' job to vote for Labour so that Labour politicians can fulfil their career ambitions. Labour is apparently entitled to the votes of people earning less than x per annum.

People like Polly don't see it as Labour's duty to persuade the electorate. The electorate are just an obstacle in the way of party members' hopes and dreams. That's why Polly would rather have a (male, natch) Labour government than female suffrage.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2023 20:49

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 14:18

If this is really true and 25% are genuinely undecided maybe the vast lot of this down to the gender issue, what will it mean at the GE?

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25% of women being undecided wouldn't be untypical though.

Women tend to be less fixed in their intentions to vote than men as a rule. I don't think 25% is much removed for previous figures I've seen. Nor does this mean that they aren't leaning towards a particular party. It just means they are perhaps less decisive and confident in their political beliefs (women are often discouraged from having political opinions - or they don't feel they know enough to state an opinion).

When they do the polls right before a GE, the pollsters do a lot more work on what 'undecided' really means - and it's rarely as undecided as it seems. It's just that women in particular don't like stating a position.

So I'm inclined not to read too much into these numbers at this stage. We are still potentially 15 months off a GE.

I think one of the factors at the next election will be getting the vote out, not just supposed support for a party. I think we will have an exceptionally low turnout - with who fails to vote being a significant thing to look out for in comparison to previous elections. It could throw up a few surprises.

Froodwithatowel · 27/10/2023 20:53

Mandelson said it. Openly. Labour at the time believed in the post democratic era. Where the scum would do what was good for them, and have no ability to vote out their masters.

You see it constantly in all the left parties. If you agree with me unconditionally, and say all the right things, you are a good person. If you don't agree or have other opinions, you are beneath contempt and are a non-person, and you should be punished. Hence the belief that it's ok to threaten people and break the law IF you are of the righteous and punishing the unbelievers. It's ok to talk about removing equality of access from the non compliant, such as those with disabilities or minority faiths incompatible with fantasy lives of more important people. And now it's ok to openly chat about women shouldn't have the vote. And to feel safe and comfortable to say it.

They're mad. In a fucking scary way. And this is what they say before a fucking election . This is them in don't scare the horses mode. What the actual fuck is the part they wouldn't (yet) openly say? This lot are no more socialist than a bloody tea pot.

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 21:03

Frood, I'm still scunnered. I can't believe someone would think this, let alone say this, let alone publish it in a national paper.

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 21:06

Comments are open.

'Personally I secretly wish that all the readers of the Telegraph, Sun and Daily Mail had their vote removed.'

It's been a long time since I read the Guardian. What the fuck has been going on over there?

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/10/2023 21:07

Polly also said that no one over 60 should be allowed to vote at the Brexit referendum.

In fact I bet she thinks no one should be allowed to vote.

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 21:19

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/10/2023 21:07

Polly also said that no one over 60 should be allowed to vote at the Brexit referendum.

In fact I bet she thinks no one should be allowed to vote.

Is nobody else shocked by this?!

Froodwithatowel · 27/10/2023 21:23

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/10/2023 21:07

Polly also said that no one over 60 should be allowed to vote at the Brexit referendum.

In fact I bet she thinks no one should be allowed to vote.

................

JHC.

This should be front page news.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 27/10/2023 21:27

Essentially, Polly and co want some kind of variation on pre-suffrage Britain, when no women, and very few men, had the vote. This time, instead of the qualification to vote being based on income, it's going to be whether you have a degree, or part of a degree, in the correct university subject.

Userwithallthenumbers · 27/10/2023 21:27

Genuine Q - how many men are decided? And why, given that the next election is a year out from now? Without a comparative figure, shouting about 25% is meaningless

I canvass. Trans issues almost never come up around here. I think my H got asked once earlier this year. I am GC but it is not on my list of reasons to vote one way or another.

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 21:34

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 27/10/2023 21:27

Essentially, Polly and co want some kind of variation on pre-suffrage Britain, when no women, and very few men, had the vote. This time, instead of the qualification to vote being based on income, it's going to be whether you have a degree, or part of a degree, in the correct university subject.

I've just been having a wee read on anti-democratic ideas. I think this stance of Toynbee and others may be described as a form of thought akin to Platonic ideas, but instead of it being about being learned or rich to be entitled to vote, it's about being morally superior.

They may like to claim it is about being 'educated' or 'wise', but in practise it's about faith and belief.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 27/10/2023 21:54

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 21:34

I've just been having a wee read on anti-democratic ideas. I think this stance of Toynbee and others may be described as a form of thought akin to Platonic ideas, but instead of it being about being learned or rich to be entitled to vote, it's about being morally superior.

They may like to claim it is about being 'educated' or 'wise', but in practise it's about faith and belief.

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In that case, they probably want particular university subjects to act as a proxy for a new set of elite families, all born to govern.

It'll be the 18th century all over again. Having to respect particular unique pronoun demands is a novel twist on the 18th century requirements to respect the honorifics to address Earls and Viscounts, but it serves the same social function.

Crankywiddershins · 27/10/2023 22:02

So much this x
I stayed home with my babies (thank you Blair and Brown for the tax credits which made it possible) because I felt that was important. I'd never really thought about the wages of the women employed to care for other women's babies, while the actual mothers are working (mostly to pay for the child care and their car lease) but of course the carers wages would be even lower, it's trickle down economics innit?

Crankywiddershins · 27/10/2023 22:04

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 19:42

And another point, on Reeves' 'solution' to the pay gap:

'On the damage done by the 15% pay gap between women and men, she said at her launch: “I’ll be the first chancellor to close the gap once and for all.” She uses the term “everyday economics” when she talks of how women in social care, retail, education and health “need a wage they can live on”: she says flexible, affordable childcare is key to ending the pay gap. Every company, every City firm, relies on these everyday economics, she said, meaning the labour of lower-paid women'

If 'closing the gap' means women are effectively forced to pass their babies/children to lower-paid women to care for, instead of caring for them theirselves then no, thanks, Labour.

I don't actually WANT to be obliged to be part of a neo-liberal policy that monetises everything to the nth degree and turns mothering into a commodity. I've heard too many women regret being forced into the situation where they have to pay someone else to care for their baby instead of doing it themselves.

This isn't a solution.

(Mine would be building far more high quality and affordable housing, so that people aren't trapped by extortionate mortgages and can have a more flexible approach to work/life choices. But economic growth would suffer, and neither the Tories nor Labour appear willing to countenance that)

Previous comment was a reply to this, but yeah, technology on a Friday night...

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2023 22:05

Userwithallthenumbers · 27/10/2023 21:27

Genuine Q - how many men are decided? And why, given that the next election is a year out from now? Without a comparative figure, shouting about 25% is meaningless

I canvass. Trans issues almost never come up around here. I think my H got asked once earlier this year. I am GC but it is not on my list of reasons to vote one way or another.

See my previous post. 25% ISN'T an outlier.

User135644 · 27/10/2023 22:07

Tukmgru · 27/10/2023 14:25

It’s completely idiotic to think it’s about trans/gender stuff. The vast, vast majority of people outside of mumsnet do not obsess over it, and certainly don’t vote based on it.

Also just a reminder that the tories have basically decriminalised rape, which should be much more discussed on this site. Oh and it’s trans stuff that gets your goat, who has been in power over the past 13 years and overseen some of the bigger expansions in trans rights? Yeah, it’s the tories guys.

The Tories love to play the card of "(insert issue here) is a mess, vote Conservative to fix it". Never mind the fact they've been in power for 13 years in which time the issue has manifested (and it could be anything here as they've utterly destroyed the country). But yeah vote for them anyway because they need to sort the mess they created. And millions still will.

Crankywiddershins · 27/10/2023 22:08

Redshoeblueshoe · 27/10/2023 21:07

Polly also said that no one over 60 should be allowed to vote at the Brexit referendum.

In fact I bet she thinks no one should be allowed to vote.

Don't be ridiculous! I'm sure she's happy for people who agree with her to have the vote.

ResisterRex · 27/10/2023 22:14

ArthurbellaScott · 27/10/2023 19:36

Eyes down.

So glad you made this

TheHoover · 27/10/2023 22:15

The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter

winston churchill

JanesLittleGirl · 27/10/2023 22:22

TheHoover · 27/10/2023 22:15

The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter

winston churchill

But also from Winston Churchill:

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

CapitaineBelkacem · 27/10/2023 22:42

I am GC. I will vote Labour despite their stance on this because I can't bear the thought of another 5 years of this awful govt. Pisses me off though.

As an aside: in the past few months I've had conversations with 4 women who I'd bet good money are not on MN. The trans issue came up - totally unprompted, raised by them as reasons why they would think twice about voting Labour despite always having done so in the past. All 4 are over 50, university educated at non-fancy institutions, 2 are retired, all but one not especially political. Not on any social media. This issue is definitely cutting through and it's not just on MN.

FKATondelayo · 27/10/2023 22:54

Instead, they think it is the working classes' job to vote for Labour so that Labour politicians can fulfil their career ambitions.

This is it exactly.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/10/2023 23:00

I think what makes a lot of people baulk is not the whole 'no more single sex spaces for you ladies!' thing (I mean women are genetically more kind than men and should share amirite?)

it's the 'we both know this man isn't a woman. but you have to say he his, because I say so and because he says so. what we say is more important than your opinion, so you must pretend to agree with us'

while some people love authoritarianism, most don't. and only a fool would vote for it

Twentytoone · 27/10/2023 23:08

Well I have no idea how to vote 🤷‍♀️

Tories have turned a prosperous ‘Cool Britannia’ country into a one where food banks are common, rape goes unpunished 99% of the time, scjools are literally falling down, prisons are full and we’ve pissed off all our closest allies. I’m convinced Boris Johnson’s career was supported by Russia in the same way that Russia fought to get Trump elected.

Labour have treated their female MPs appallingly (particularly Rosie Duffield), they all seem pretty misogynistic to me and completely disinterested in protecting children’s safeguarding or women’s rights, plus Labour are actively campaigning against my right to say a man is a man. Also, having put my SEN child in private school because we were failed by the state system, I really don’t appreciate Kier’s plan to charge me an extra 20% on fees. If he wants to tax rich people, grow a pair of balls and do a wealth tax. Don’t go on a hate campaign against private school kids just cos you’re upset your grammar school got turned into a private school Kier.

Greens have gone mad and are on a hate campaign against their female members. Lib Dems have been quite clear that they don’t want the vote of any women who won’t say what men tell them to about women’s spaces, so they’re not getting my vote

Guess I’ll have to hope for a decent independent candidate. At the moment I’d vote for anyone rather than one of the main parties.

Barbadossunset · 28/10/2023 00:05

Redshoeblueshoe · Today 21:07

Polly also said that no one over 60 should be allowed to vote at the Brexit referendum.
In fact I bet she thinks no one should be allowed to vote.

Polly Toynbee was 70 in 2016 so presumably she would’ve been happy not to vote.
There have been a couple of threads on mn demanding that constituents take a test before they are allowed to vote and I was surprised how many posters supported this idea.