Polly Toynbee asks why so many women are undecided how to vote?

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/27/female-voters-undecided-labour-rachel-reeves

not even a passing reference to the huge elephant in the room.

That she feels free to write this in the Guardian shows how much contempt the Professional Left has for women's rights. She would overturn female suffrage because some women don't vote as she does.

There have been times when I (very secretly) wished women had never got the vote.

Shocking.

My Polly Toynbee story: When I was a baby we lived in substandard temporary accommodation (1 room chalet, no bathroom) waiting for a council home. My mum and other residents were campaigning to get adequate housing and the landlord to do basic repairs. (A very young) Polly came along to write about the campaign and to add authenticity to her story, offered to stay with us. She showed up, took one look at where she would be sleeping and booked into a hotel.

Basically PT will support women as long as it doesn't inconvenience her.

NorthStarRising · Today 14:29

She sometimes secretly wishes women had never got the vote, because many of them vote Tory

Yes.

None of this comment makes sense. I can't even begin to understand its basic premise. Either the Tories are terrible for women's rights and welfare and their promotion of TWAW is part of this. Or they are pro-trans rights and their decriminalisation of rape has nothing to do with that? What point are you making?

I would say that the belief that 'people are who they say they are', males should have access to female spaces, male sex offenders should serve time in women's prisons, children should discuss their sexuality and 'gender' with strangers and anyone can change their identity at any time regardless of their criminal history - is consistent with decriminalisation of rape.

Gosh, what on earth goes through women's head DONT TELL US SHUT UP SSHHHHHH

I think you are wrong and are very much underestimating the number of people whose votes will be influenced by this issue.

I find it’s coming up more freely in general conversation these days from friends, colleagues and family, none of whom engage with Mumsnet in any way nor are particularly political. But they’re concerned and are asking door-knocking political parties to explain their position because it will influence their vote.

Why are so many women undecided? An article with a question in the headline. Surely it is entirely logical to open it up for comments, if you’re puzzled and genuinely want to learn why women are undecided. Then again, Polly admits that she sometimes wishes that women who disagree with her were banned from voting. So it probably stands to reason that women who disagree with Polly shouldn’t be allowed to comment on her article either.

Although Tbf if your thing is either Brexit or culture wars, then there’s absolutely no chance I’ll listen

To me this just epitomises Labour: making value judgements about people and dismissing them without actually listening to them. * *

Why are so many women undecided?

Could it be that, while the Tories have been absolutely piss-poor, Labour have kept their deal clinching alternative policies so well hidden that a lot of women are unconvinced that voting for them will lead to anything better?

Which women are those? The TWAW or the old fashioned type? Without being able to differentiate, Polly isn't going to find the answer. Oh, there we have it. Politicians can neither target nor attract women voters because they don't actually know what a woman is. Hahahaha, whodathunk. It would be hilarious if I actually had an alternative to vote for.

I tell you what else is being underestimated - how inhibited people are when it comes to discussing this issue.

The strength of feeling, the sheer fucking RAGE at how badly women have been treated - that's widespread.

But still, they don't want to lose our jobs/get accused of hate crime/lose friends.

So people don't say anything.

Except on for example anonymous internet forums.

Funny, that.

There have been times when I (very secretly) wished women had never got the vote.

Holy fuck. Did she honestly write that? Really and truly?

that is heartbreaking, horrifying and enraging all at once.

Edit: yes, I'll go and read the article.

there have been times when I (very secretly) wished women had never got the vote.

Jesus H Christ.

I'm really scunnered by that. I just ... I've never heard anything like it. What a foul, revolting and stupid thing to say.

What next? All black and brown people should vote Labour? She wouldn't want the vote extended to those PoC who don't stay in their lane?

Yes.

All these threads end the same way. You try and discuss why, as left leaning feminists, you can't vote Labour and the usual Whatabouters show up with "What about the Tories? / The Tories are much worse / Why do you support the Tories?" It's so banal. We're not discussing the Tories because we would not vote for them anyway.

Either that or they say "Nobody cares about trans issues outside your tiny MN bubble. Women are far too busy putting food on the table and trying to pay their soaring energy bills." In that case, why are you worried? Let us niche non-voters have a space to ourselves while you sit confidently assured of your crushing Labour 2024 landslide.

Eyes down.

And another point, on Reeves' 'solution' to the pay gap:

'On the damage done by the 15% pay gap between women and men, she said at her launch: “I’ll be the first chancellor to close the gap once and for all.” She uses the term “everyday economics” when she talks of how women in social care, retail, education and health “need a wage they can live on”: she says flexible, affordable childcare is key to ending the pay gap. Every company, every City firm, relies on these everyday economics, she said, meaning the labour of lower-paid women'

If 'closing the gap' means women are effectively forced to pass their babies/children to lower-paid women to care for, instead of caring for them theirselves then no, thanks, Labour.

I don't actually WANT to be obliged to be part of a neo-liberal policy that monetises everything to the nth degree and turns mothering into a commodity. I've heard too many women regret being forced into the situation where they have to pay someone else to care for their baby instead of doing it themselves.

This isn't a solution.

(Mine would be building far more high quality and affordable housing, so that people aren't trapped by extortionate mortgages and can have a more flexible approach to work/life choices. But economic growth would suffer, and neither the Tories nor Labour appear willing to countenance that)

Fucking hell.

Well it's not like I never suspected, but yes. Will not be touching any leftist party with a bargepole. I'll take incompetent and corrupt over fucking scary mad.

Yes but I think the people who don't agree the Tories have messed up the country will vote Tory.

So who are these undecided people, and why are they undecided?

I canvass for Labour. I did this quite intensively for last year's May locals. The topic only came up once. We always look out for each other when out as a team so that if someone hasn't returned to the group in ten minutes or so, someone checks that they haven't encountered any aggro. One of our canvassers was delayed for about 20 minutes with an angry woman on the what is a woman question. The canvasser is a gentle gentleman sort in his 70s who didn't have a clue about this issue.
Since last year, I have had several canvassing sessions in a neighbouring swing constituency. It hasn't cropped up once.
That said, I think it will become an increasingly live issue as it is getting more mainstream reporting and issues are cropping up in schools. I don't think relying on voters' ignorance is sustainable.
Scotland witnessed an outcry with the timely conviction of Isla and then it backfired spectacularly on a hopelessly unprepared SNP. The Tories and right wing press are also going to hammer this home so Labour aren't going to be allowed to sidestep it.

It's not ignorance. It's fear of raising the subject.

Well, sorry. It may be both. But I wouldn't discount the latter, it's still a striking feature of the (lack of) debate.

Wasn't there recently a study that said that about a third of people didn't realise that trans women could mean fully intact males. I genuinely think this subject is shrouded in ignorance. I'm sure if you asked 100 voters what non binary meant, about 30 might have an approximate answer (I'm not even sure I would be one of them). Trans activism has been as successful as it has to date by brushing over the detail. That's why it is now coming unstuck.

Surely the question should be Why are so many women readers undecided about the Guardian.

By the time I saw the post on this thread saying comments now open, it had already closed.

If PT thinks what she writes will inspire women to vote Labour she needs to say so from a platform less hostile / disrespectful of women.