DD is now a TERF

[Bouledeneige]

So pleased. When she was at school in her late teenage years she was very woke and we had some horrible arguments - she told me to never to say my views in front of her friends as they'd hate me (all very privileged righteous middle class girls who had all the views and were constantly 'calling out' others behaviours). I simply could not say that woman means an adult human female.

But now she's 23 and a feminist in every way. The conversation started on men in women's sport and Lia Thomas. We then moved to women being safe in refuges and prisons. We then discussed who but a biological woman understands period pains and the everyday institutional sexism in society, or feeling unsafe in the streets after dark. Then we discussed medicalising young people and doing irreversible harm to their bodies and future fertility. She brought up the NHS using terms like 'people who give birth'. I told her about Jessica Yaniv.

It felt so good. I've kept my mouth shut for so long.

Just need to wait for common sense to prevail with DS 21 currently at Sussex University.

There’s an element of the ideology not surviving contact with reality in this stuff. In the bubbles of school and higher education, people can be insulated from the reality in various ways. They can get attached to identity politics without any real sense of genuine context.

Sadly some people manage to stay in these kind of bubbles and rise to positions of power without having to challenge their ideological assumptions with actual data. Worryingly (as the OU tribunal debacle demonstrates) some of those people should understand the importance of testing their assumptions with empirical data and somehow manage to convince themselves this is a tyrannous notion. 🙄

Excellent.
Mine is still all woke, or perhaps pretending to be so as not to alienate people at Uni, but I'm sure she'll get there, she's not daft, her bf doesn't believe it but does placate her.

It's such a relief when our children finally get there.
We all know that lies should never flourish - but in this world of make believe social media, it's taking such a long time for reality to rise to the surface.

I am lucky me and my 22year old daughter share the same terfy views, i'm happy that most young women are waking up! I hope you can have many discussions together!

This is why it's quite funny when Posie Parker says 'Your mum's a TERF'!! at trans activists in protests.....because I bet a lot of the time, it is actually true 😅

Congratulations.

I think you will need to wait for your other daughter to leave Sussex Uni, she in in the belly of the beast.

My DD is slowly coming round....We had to agree to disagree on this a few years ago. But she has had at least 2 awful experiences of biological men being in what should have been safe spaces for her recently. She knows.

I think they all get there in the end.

Absolutely!
I'm off to London to LWS again next month and can't wait, even ordered a new WWW hoody for the occasion.

It's a DS at Sussex. He was always sceptical about Trans issues when at school and even used to joke that he was a woman for a day..... He's smart and scientific. So it was a huge disappointment when the Kathleen Stock events happened and he started spouting bollocks about what she'd written - which simply weren't accurate or true. Sadly I think he was influenced by some female student friends who were very outspoken in their 'be kind' trans allyship. Hopefully his intelligence will regain prominence in his thinking soon.

Is 23 a magic age then? You are giving me hope that I can resume a relationship on a sane footing with my daughter aged 22 and 10 months.
When we delve into the details, she often flounders as she can't back up the nonsense. She's a bright girl so there's hope but of course she mingles with other no debate progressives so she finds me 'problematic'.
Glinner's book is prominently placed on the bookshelf so that will be a lightning rod when she comes over.

Mine's 22, just started 2nd year at Glasgow Uni so I think I've a few more years yet, but saying that, I think the tide is turning and she hates looking stupid so may come round quicker.
Her Bf graduated this year and is now working so that might help too.
That said, she can carry on as long as she likes, entirely her choice, my views aren't changing.

Sadly, I’d imagine large numbers young women will have to come to terms with reality through some pretty negative experiences of biological men in what should be single sex spaces.

I think the your mum’s a TERF thing only applies if their mums have actually thought it through. Too many people seem desperate to be ‘cool mums’ and seem unwilling to question anything young people say.

The social media issue is a problem too - because it allows people to stay in their bubbles and avoid facing up to reality.

Good.

It's the latest trendy thing and you have to wait for them to grow up.

When I was a teen it was those metal bangles you wore about a thousand of, choosing music to 'love' based primarily on how much your parents hated it and shouting loudly about being an individual while dressing and acting exactly like ever other teen yelling about being An Individual.

Now it appears to be yelling that biological sex isn't real and Feelings Matter More.

But only the feelings of select groups.

Well done to your DD. Mine also peaked around age 18. I was so relieved because she'd been a right little pill about it for some time. But then the more her trans friends started making unreasonable demands, and watching some of them struggling with serious unaddressed mental health issues, she saw the light.

When I was a teen it was those metal bangles you wore about a thousand of,

Do you mean the coloured Indian-style ones in the 70s? I freaking loved those!

Great thread. There is hope!

My kids are still very little and I'm already thinking about how to engage with them from a young age to hopefully stop them falling for thus stuff in the first place. Either the gender stuff or whatever the new magical thinking is when they are the right age to be vulnerable to it.

Whilst it's tragic that young women have to go through such crap in order to change their minds, it's a relief to know they can change their minds.

I am so glad for you and your DD @Bouledeneige ! It is encouraging when young people 'get it' at last. And one in the eye for the MRAs whose arguments drift into 'you bigots are all old and will be dead soon and then the world will be full of us right thinkers' bollocks!

Hurrah for Bouledeneige Junior - welcome to the Terf Side

My 15 year old nephew is gay, so I was a bit worried he’d get caught up in all the genderwoo, but my sister says he’s very secure in his sex and sexuality, and although he had a MTF trans friend, s/he went to a different school after socially transitioning so that nobody would know s/he was a girl - they hardly ever see/speak to each other these days, and my nephew finds it all a bit strange and silly. Phew!

My niece (29) is a feminist but works in a university and is steeped in gender ideology. I appreciate the workplace pressure she must be under to #KeepQuietAndPlayAlong and am sure she’ll be easily convertible once out of that environment. She was appalled when I told her that rape victims had to refer to being raped “with her penis” in court.

My Dad’s now a TERF, as is my sister. Little by little, bit by bit, and nobody changes their mind the other way once they’ve seen the light.

I'm really sorry to hear your daughter had negative experiences 😔 is there any way you or she could speak up about them? Real practical evidence of the harm to women, young and old, is always welcome.

A good friend of mine, gay, has a niece, high functioning autistic, ADHD, self harming, who is now IDing FTM as his "nephew". Indeed, male pronouns are in use, and no-one objects, all keeping their heads down. All the family accept the new ID. My friend has always been a biological determinist, his words are "what's between your legs determines who you are, how you'll act, full stop".

But I've detected a change in him, he's less likely to be this adamant, much less scathing on "misled" trans as he would have termed it in the past. Now all that matters is that the new "nephew" is not pushing for meds, binders, mastectomies as was the case before.

And actually, no-one in the family talks about it. As I put the pov that all here would expect me to put, it was evident he didn't want to talk about it. That's fine, it's not my family, and I'm not insensitive.

What was disturbing was his tacit acceptance. He related no conceptual issues he was having. No more chat on you follow your dick as a man. Now it's all damage limitation and language obscurantism to accommodate. And even worse, his move to pretty much say it was a social evolution like any, which of course puts me all on the back foot. Because I won't argue with him. Interestingly, he ends the chat upbeat. I'm the one sad as I put the phone down.

When I pointed out that opinion on social change was easy as a man, even a gay man, he got that. When I pointed out that his "nephew" walking into my toilet or shower or any other previously proudly delineated situation would mean jack shit to me, but had this been a nephew transing to "niece" and accessing those spaces for women, there would be chaos, he kinda got it.

My main takeaway. Even the brashest confident in reality people can be so easily cowed by this. And even as a gay man, he hasn't worked out how this can't work for women. And why there's a whole part of our lives as friends we can now never discuss (his "niece" and his need to double down there, and my GC views, in relation to women's rights and free speech).

The world has really died quite a lot because of this.

My social circle has had to agree not to talk about these issues.

My sister and I have had a few really ugly arguments as I won't "be kind" especially around women in sport. She genuinely believes TWAW. She also didn't do biology after age 13. I'm a doctor and just can't get over the fact that she can't see that you can't change your bloody chromosomes.

Hey ho.

Another very close friend is gay. All signed up to Stonewall, EDI committee for his professional body etc. and we've argued so many times about pronouns etc. We now just ignore the issue as me shouting angrily that his privileged liberal middle class dictates are part of the problem. And that he will never understand the subtle sexism that women experience.

I have a senior role at work but recently experienced everyone ignoring a point I made , only to have the same point championed when made by a man. Fortunately the committee chair is an ally and reminded everyone that I'd just said the same thing. Bravo to him. Grr to the rest of the fuckers.

I've not spoken to my closest friend since the whole Scotland thing. His mum can't speak to him either. It's sad as he would have been all over this as a teen I think very vulnerable but can't see it. He thinks I'm being mean to the poor most marginalised trans. He's 40ish. Gay, lt relationship, always loved sex. Has been known to dress as a woman at parties, wouldn't deny the personal 3 letter bit of that was part of it.
I think is la la la ING rather than wilfully blind to the issues of young people and Prisons etc but it's v hard.