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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

LargeSquareRock · 22/10/2023 07:30

Kath Viner is such a wet lettuce. The Observer is doing a great job shining light on this.

BettyFilous · 22/10/2023 07:42

That’s a very clear explanation of why the proposed conversion therapy bill is a problem. It would be good for sharing with people who are new to this issue.

BrightYellowButtercup · 22/10/2023 07:47

Thanks for sharing

DisappearingGirl · 22/10/2023 07:49

That's a fantastic article. Seems such an obviously ridiculous idea, explained like that.

Kucinghitam · 22/10/2023 08:00

A good article, although I feel a sense of weariness that FWR regulars have been saying this stuff, over and over and over, for absolutely fucking years. I very clearly recall writing precisely these points, in great detail, in the government consultation - as did so many of us.

Floisme · 22/10/2023 08:18

Thanks for the link. Yes it's both gratifying and infuriating to see the essence of a mainstream FWR discussion presented in a Sunday broadsheet. But I'll choose to be grown up about it - the important thing is to get it out there and for the Observer readership to see it.

Floisme · 22/10/2023 08:30

Sorry I chopped off some of my own post:
Yes it's both gratifying and infuriating to see the essence of a mainstream FWR discussion presented in a Sunday broadsheet as if it's something new.

DisappearingGirl · 22/10/2023 09:45

Also fantastic to see this in a left wing newspaper, as most of the gender stuff I see is Daily Mail shit stirring, which just further polarises my lovely left-leaning friends and colleagues.

An aside - is Rishi Sunak simultaneously claiming that you can't change sex, but also that if you tell someone they can't change sex then you're guilty of conversion therapy?

Chersfrozenface · 22/10/2023 09:59

"An aside - is Rishi Sunak simultaneously claiming that you can't change sex, but also that if you tell someone they can't change sex then you're guilty of conversion therapy?"

I suspect that Mr Sunak has advisers telling him things - people at that level usually outsource their speech writing and often their thinking.

So one lot has spotted a way of skewering Labour on not knowing what a woman is. Another lot has said the Tories can look liberal by outlawing conversion therapy, without knowing about, or knowing about but deliberately not revealing, the enormous problem with "gender identity".

Floisme · 22/10/2023 10:22

I'm not having a pop at the Observer and particularly not at Sonia Sodha (who I'm guessing wrote this piece) but I can't help thinking what a difference it would have made if the rest of the self-styled liberal media had done their job from the start.

DisappearingGirl · 22/10/2023 10:27

Chersfrozenface · 22/10/2023 09:59

"An aside - is Rishi Sunak simultaneously claiming that you can't change sex, but also that if you tell someone they can't change sex then you're guilty of conversion therapy?"

I suspect that Mr Sunak has advisers telling him things - people at that level usually outsource their speech writing and often their thinking.

So one lot has spotted a way of skewering Labour on not knowing what a woman is. Another lot has said the Tories can look liberal by outlawing conversion therapy, without knowing about, or knowing about but deliberately not revealing, the enormous problem with "gender identity".

I suspect this is 100% correct!

MassiveWordSalad · 22/10/2023 10:42

Chersfrozenface · 22/10/2023 09:59

"An aside - is Rishi Sunak simultaneously claiming that you can't change sex, but also that if you tell someone they can't change sex then you're guilty of conversion therapy?"

I suspect that Mr Sunak has advisers telling him things - people at that level usually outsource their speech writing and often their thinking.

So one lot has spotted a way of skewering Labour on not knowing what a woman is. Another lot has said the Tories can look liberal by outlawing conversion therapy, without knowing about, or knowing about but deliberately not revealing, the enormous problem with "gender identity".

I imagine it as a pretty dark Armando Iannucci sketch when I try to picture Rishi (or Keir for that matter) getting advice on this stuff.

In real life, of course, Armando wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/10/2023 11:44

A good and clear article. Very useful for sharing with the pious lefty who gets their information from comics like the guardian.

Abhannmor · 22/10/2023 12:27

Very clear and sensible piece. The stance of the Observer is all the more surprising when it to the left of the Guardian on most issues.
Or perhaps it's not surprising at all? I could never marry up this hyper individualist gender stuff with ' improving the material conditions ' of the less well off. But then I'm a 🦕

ClarkGablesMoustache · 22/10/2023 12:32

The Observer is such a beacon of rationality. I'm so glad these is one left-leaning paper not in thrall to gender ideology.

BrightYellowButtercup · 22/10/2023 19:36

Abhannmor · 22/10/2023 12:27

Very clear and sensible piece. The stance of the Observer is all the more surprising when it to the left of the Guardian on most issues.
Or perhaps it's not surprising at all? I could never marry up this hyper individualist gender stuff with ' improving the material conditions ' of the less well off. But then I'm a 🦕

🦕🦖💚😊

zanahoria · 22/10/2023 20:38

I have noticed that The Guardian has managed to put out some quite decent pieces showing different strands of left sing think on the Israel Palestine issue. It is actively making an effort to creating a debate.

Shame it has never managed it on this issue.

duc748 · 22/10/2023 20:52

Good clear piece. Is it petty to say I don't like the use of the term 'sex change surgery' (or sex change operation)? No surgery, not cutting off breasts or penises, can change someone's sex.

GreenVelvetCushions · 23/10/2023 21:21

duc748 · 22/10/2023 20:52

Good clear piece. Is it petty to say I don't like the use of the term 'sex change surgery' (or sex change operation)? No surgery, not cutting off breasts or penises, can change someone's sex.

Agreed

napody · 23/10/2023 21:42

Kucinghitam · 22/10/2023 08:00

A good article, although I feel a sense of weariness that FWR regulars have been saying this stuff, over and over and over, for absolutely fucking years. I very clearly recall writing precisely these points, in great detail, in the government consultation - as did so many of us.

I agree.
I wonder if at any point there will be some kind of acknowledgement that the vipers/mothers were right all along!

Bloody great article though. It's made my day to be honest.

RayonSunrise · 25/10/2023 09:59

Abhannmor · 22/10/2023 12:27

Very clear and sensible piece. The stance of the Observer is all the more surprising when it to the left of the Guardian on most issues.
Or perhaps it's not surprising at all? I could never marry up this hyper individualist gender stuff with ' improving the material conditions ' of the less well off. But then I'm a 🦕

The Observer has been pretty calm and balanced on this topic all the way along.

Personally, I hope this latest dash at a "conversation therapy" ban puts paid to the ongoing delusion that transactivism is just a left wing preoccupation. Heaven knows the left has been more sanctimonious on the topic, but the Stonewallification of our institutions has happened during a decade of Conservative government. The right wasn't just asleep at the switch, it's been perfectly happy to support the TRAs until they remembered women actually have votes. As we've seen here, even having a few female Tory ministers pushing back isn't enough to turn the tide on this completely.

MassiveWordSalad · 26/10/2023 11:46

duc748 · 22/10/2023 20:52

Good clear piece. Is it petty to say I don't like the use of the term 'sex change surgery' (or sex change operation)? No surgery, not cutting off breasts or penises, can change someone's sex.

Could we call it cosmetic genital surgery? And 'top surgery' could be cosmetic mastectomy? Since you cannot actually change someone's sex by removing or adding bits of flesh, it's all surface detail, isn't it?

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