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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

18th October is International Pronouns Day

85 replies

SamW98 · 18/10/2023 15:38

https://pronouns.org/day#:~:text=October%2018%2C%202023,is%20basic%20to%20human%20dignity.

Who knew this was an actual day?

International Pronouns Day seeks to make respecting, sharing, and educating about personal pronouns commonplace. Referring to people by the pronouns they determine for themselves is basic to human dignity.

International Pronouns Day — Pronouns.org Resources on Personal Pronouns

https://pronouns.org/day#:~:text=October%2018%2C%202023,is%20basic%20to%20human%20dignity.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2023 19:42

GrumpyPanda · 18/10/2023 19:38

Don't get all the sneering on here, I think it's an excellent idea. There aren't enough pronouns around. I'd like to direct everybody's attention to a particular problem area, namely the egregious absence on the English language of a formal 2nd person pronoun to parallel "Vous" or "Sie" in other European languages. This would also open up vast new opportunities for huffiness - get addressed with "you" rather than "*You"? "I don't recall us ever being nursery playmates."

I thought 'you' is the equivalent of 'vous', it's 'thou' that we've mislaid.
Wouldst thou like to reinstate it?

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 18/10/2023 20:15

Don't y'all listen to GrumpyPanda!

MsFogi · 18/10/2023 20:21

Bollocks! No, I refuse - I have decided to make it 'International All About Me Day' so if you could all just centre and celebrate me for the day that would be perfect. And if you don't that will be literal violence towards me me me.

MsFogi · 18/10/2023 20:24

And to respond to a message above I would like to reinstate 'thou', it is sadly lacking in the English language - it is much easier to establish a distance or superiority in French.

turbonerd · 18/10/2023 20:27

Her Majesties (me) just cannot wait.

Majestiesia will be the champion of pronouns the livelong day. With Impunity!!

Seriously. Is the writer of This Flag Means Death having us on?

MagpiePi · 18/10/2023 20:43

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am

I used to referee men’s rugby and was fine with being called ‘sir’, as it’s the generic name for referees. I saw it as more of a job title than a gendered form of address and it was better than ‘miss’ or ‘ma’am’. Can’t say I ever felt triggered or insulted or even in need of a lie down in a dark room.

bellac11 · 18/10/2023 20:47

willingtolearn · 18/10/2023 16:22

When is international apostrophe day or Metaphor week? It seems unfair to exclude them.

What about those square brackets that no one really uses or notices.

I suspect they are feeling really isolated

Millybob · 18/10/2023 20:53

I rather like the idea of claiming 'one' as my pronoun - very Hyacinth Bucket!
Or perhaps I'll channel Mrs Thatcher and the Queen - we and us?
I do feel one should take the opportunity to take the piss with a poker face and act very offended if one is deprived of one's royal we by some common upstart.

MassiveWordSalad · 18/10/2023 20:57

No one has ever asked me my pronouns yet thank fuck but I will answer I/me/myself because those are the pronouns I use. I'm not wrong, am I?

ConferenceHost · 18/10/2023 20:58

Bumply · 18/10/2023 16:05

It's also World Menopause Day

Fortunately my employer, who is a fully paid up Stonewall member, only chose to acknowledge this.

They do sometimes ask for pronouns but nobody has asked me yet. If they do, I’m just going to say with a straight face that I don’t have any, and see what they do with that.

(I have recently put a tiny GC flag above the parapet and raised a polite concern with my manager about some training at work, so let’s see how that goes too. I’d not have been brave enough a year ago)

marmitegirl01 · 18/10/2023 21:10

Just realised I've been misgendered when I was younger ( unisex name)
Can I be utterly offended now please - I could do with a bit of compo 🤷‍♀️ 💴

viques · 18/10/2023 21:18

Oh no! I missed it. never mind I will try to do better next year.

IcakethereforeIam · 18/10/2023 21:21

I know the feeling 😕 I missed international talk like a pirate day....me hearties!

It's not the same, aarr!

SidewaysOtter · 18/10/2023 21:34

Just to clarify, does the international bit of “international pronouns day” reference the international nature of pronouns? Can I have different pronouns in different countries?

”Ah, I see we have crossed the border into Lichtenstein. My pronouns are now zi/zir/zirself.”

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 21:46

Pronouns cannot be international. This is a completely anglo-centric view of language.

Fink · 18/10/2023 21:58

If we're bringing back thou, I have long thought that English could do with a distinction between the inclusive and exclusive first person plural: when you say 'we' do you mean you and me (possibly with some other people), or you and other people without me?

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 22:13

Fink · 18/10/2023 21:58

If we're bringing back thou, I have long thought that English could do with a distinction between the inclusive and exclusive first person plural: when you say 'we' do you mean you and me (possibly with some other people), or you and other people without me?

We is me and at least one more person. If I'm not included then it's you if you're included or they if you aren't.

Fink · 18/10/2023 22:19

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 22:13

We is me and at least one more person. If I'm not included then it's you if you're included or they if you aren't.

Inclusive and exclusive we is from the point of view of the person being addressed, not the person talking. So if I say 'we're having supper about 7', then clearly the we includes me (the speaker), but it might or might not include the person I'm talking to. It could be 'we're having supper about 7 so please be ready by then' or 'we're having supper about 7 so please don't call then'. Some languages don't have this problem because they have different words for the inclusive and exclusive forms.

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 22:45

Fink · 18/10/2023 22:19

Inclusive and exclusive we is from the point of view of the person being addressed, not the person talking. So if I say 'we're having supper about 7', then clearly the we includes me (the speaker), but it might or might not include the person I'm talking to. It could be 'we're having supper about 7 so please be ready by then' or 'we're having supper about 7 so please don't call then'. Some languages don't have this problem because they have different words for the inclusive and exclusive forms.

I take your point. English as she is spoken works for me because it is my native language. Your example would never cause confusion for anybody who speaks English as their first language. The reason that I am interested and try to explore how spoken language works is that three of my grandparents did not speak English as their first language and I was always fascinated by how they built their sentences.

Transparent2 · 18/10/2023 22:46

Fink · 18/10/2023 16:39

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am. I also get called by my sister's/ daughter's/ nephew's/ father's name, and at work by some random names. I've survived without any injury to my sense of self. Although I do wonder why so many people over the years have independently thought that my name is Rachel - a name which sounds nothing like my real one and isn't the name of anyone close to me. I also get Rebecca quite a lot. Apparently I come across as someone whose name starts with R. I am not. Nevertheless, I have survived this far.

What's so triggering is that those triggered by 'misgendering' or 'deadnaming' are not secure in their identities as transgender people.

Angrymum22 · 18/10/2023 22:46

The only reason misgendering is triggering is that it reinforces just how unsuccessful most transitions are. Like all mammals we retain the ability to identify male and female, probably by scent, we just don’t necessarily use it since there are so many visual clues. And for that matter auditory and behavioural clues. Online it’s easy to use filters to enhance photos but in real life most people aren’t fooled.
I watched “Married at first site “ recently and it took me nano seconds to work out that one of the women was trans. The same with the current Big Brother series.
I really do object to being asked what my pronouns are and now answer” take an educated guess”.

RethinkingLife · 18/10/2023 23:13

I would like to highlight a recent (to me) phenomenon.

She/her/hers First name Second name
They/them/themselves First name Second name

The first few times I saw it, I thought it was a sequencing/database error but it's now increasingly common so I think this is intentional for some people now to have signatures, profiles, Zoom/Teams chyrons, email names in which the pronouns precede the name.

Field: healthcare.

mcduffy · 19/10/2023 07:51

This is a decent read and restored my faith in humanity a bit. Some different perspectives I hadn't even thought of but agree woth.

https://seen-network.uk/posts/2023-10-18-lets-talk-about-pronouns/

From Twitter, several people jumping to conclusions before clicking

https://x.com/seennetwork/status/1714692534939619483?s=48&t==_KkB6040Dj0W-bgsXLly5w

TaytoCheeseandOnion · 19/10/2023 07:59

I am hanging in for international day of pronoun remembrance, for all the pronouns that we used to have.

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