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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

18th October is International Pronouns Day

85 replies

SamW98 · 18/10/2023 15:38

https://pronouns.org/day#:~:text=October%2018%2C%202023,is%20basic%20to%20human%20dignity.

Who knew this was an actual day?

International Pronouns Day seeks to make respecting, sharing, and educating about personal pronouns commonplace. Referring to people by the pronouns they determine for themselves is basic to human dignity.

International Pronouns Day — Pronouns.org Resources on Personal Pronouns

https://pronouns.org/day#:~:text=October%2018%2C%202023,is%20basic%20to%20human%20dignity.

OP posts:
MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 18/10/2023 17:10

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am

I used to work in a big American bank. Despite speaking to people on the phone they'd still start their telexes (yes, I'm that old) with 'Dear Sir.' I have short hair, I've been called 'sir' by absent minded shop staff.

Should have sued someone and demanded counselling. And who cares if it's Intl Pronouns Day anyway? every day seems to be devoted to some cause or another. This is just another one to ignore.

Fink · 18/10/2023 17:58

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 18/10/2023 17:10

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am

I used to work in a big American bank. Despite speaking to people on the phone they'd still start their telexes (yes, I'm that old) with 'Dear Sir.' I have short hair, I've been called 'sir' by absent minded shop staff.

Should have sued someone and demanded counselling. And who cares if it's Intl Pronouns Day anyway? every day seems to be devoted to some cause or another. This is just another one to ignore.

Edited

Talking of Americanisms, I'd far rather be misgendered than have to listen to people constantly being referred to by their full name: 'as Danielle Jones just said when Danielle was presenting Danielle's work ...' Just use a sodding pronoun. Pick one. Someone will tell you if it's not Danielle's chosen one.

As a theologian, I also come across Godself used as a pronoun. Apparently people think it gets around the argument of using gendered language for God. It doesn't, it just jars and draws attention to the pronoun rather than the meaning of the sentence.

Illegallyblonder · 18/10/2023 18:00

FFS. On the same day as menopause day as well. You couldn't make this shit up.

nepeta · 18/10/2023 18:01

Why is it 'international? Should we celebrate those languages where the third person singular doesn't make a distinction between male and female? (Wonder how enbies stand out in those places.)

Neopronouns are the most fun, by the way; to have the right to control the speech of others even when you are not in the room, and to force them to remember cumbersome words nobody else might use or to be deemed a bigot. A fantastic opening for passive aggressive behaviour should someone wish to use it that way. Which obviously would be wrong.

What is dangerous about all this, of course, is that it is yet another way of forcing everyone to worship at the church of gender identity, because it turns our own pronouns into gender identity signals, and as far as I can tell, the feminine gender identity is going to end up being defined with very sexist stereotypes about women which we are now expected to accept as valid for ourselves if we give our pronouns as sheher.

nepeta · 18/10/2023 18:11

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 18/10/2023 17:10

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am

I used to work in a big American bank. Despite speaking to people on the phone they'd still start their telexes (yes, I'm that old) with 'Dear Sir.' I have short hair, I've been called 'sir' by absent minded shop staff.

Should have sued someone and demanded counselling. And who cares if it's Intl Pronouns Day anyway? every day seems to be devoted to some cause or another. This is just another one to ignore.

Edited

It would be useful to hear a clear explanation why dead-naming and misgendering are such serious breaches of conduct in this context, but not in any other contexts.

One person wrote that dead-naming and misgendering cause deep mental pain for transgender and nonbinary people, but the person stating this did not explain why the reaction would be so strong.

I would have thought that if a person's inner, abstract gender identity is so strong it would be at most only a minor annoyance to have someone disrespect it? It sounds like something that needs to be resolved in psychological counseling, not something that the rest of the world should fix?

Not sure. I would appreciate understanding all this better.

JaneJeffer · 18/10/2023 18:14

Please make it stop

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 18/10/2023 18:16

As a theologian, I also come across Godself used as a pronoun. Apparently people think it gets around the argument of using gendered language for God. It doesn't, it just jars and draws attention to the pronoun rather than the meaning of the sentence.

If we're talking from a Christian or Jewish perspective, God's chosen masculine pronouns have been made explicitly clear by 'Godself' - so anybody refusing to accept this is categorically confirming that they don't agree with people being allowed to specify their own preferred pronouns.

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 18/10/2023 18:19

It's obviously not the 'deadnaming' itself that is upsetting people; they must already have underlying issues that cause them to react this way in the first place.

If somebody were repeatedly calling you something grossly offensive or malicious, I would understand; but somebody unwittingly calling you Michael when you now go by Michele should not make a well person feel so traumatised.

Ormally · 18/10/2023 18:20

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 18/10/2023 16:54

We could always have a Colon Day - where people can feel free to stick all these pointless 'international days'... wherever they deem appropriate!

Colons have a whole month - April. The variety that malfunction and cause digestive and bowel nastiness, and are undeniably a wearying fixture of some not-always-evident disabilities without much effective medical treatment.

On the subject of gerunds, I can't help thinking of these Ronald Searle cartoons - don't know if I am allowed to link in this way, but I will have a go. Site by Matou

FebruaryOnMyMind · 18/10/2023 18:22

Apart from entitled people and try hard diversity specialists who gives a flying monkeys.

I think lots are bored of this now.

LoobiJee · 18/10/2023 18:23

basic to human dignity”

What utter nonsense.

Those campaigning to remove female humans’ right to single-sex female-only spaces when in a state of undress have the cheek to talk about basic human dignity in the context of…pronouns?

What entitlement, self-absorption, and arrogance.

Treaclewell · 18/10/2023 18:23

They have also drawn attention away from International Okapi Day. They want all 365.

FebruaryOnMyMind · 18/10/2023 18:23

JaneJeffer · 18/10/2023 18:14

Please make it stop

I refuse to participate in anything to do with 'stating pronouns during introductions' too pompous

Fink · 18/10/2023 18:30

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 18/10/2023 18:16

As a theologian, I also come across Godself used as a pronoun. Apparently people think it gets around the argument of using gendered language for God. It doesn't, it just jars and draws attention to the pronoun rather than the meaning of the sentence.

If we're talking from a Christian or Jewish perspective, God's chosen masculine pronouns have been made explicitly clear by 'Godself' - so anybody refusing to accept this is categorically confirming that they don't agree with people being allowed to specify their own preferred pronouns.

Yes, that point is frequently made. There are cartoons and memes about it. But for goodness' sake don't say that out loud to one of the Godself crew or you'll be in for a 30 minute lecture on various theories of biblical translation (which, appropriately, are a spectrum not a binary choice), how grammatical gender works in Hebrew and Greek, cultural assumptions inherent in historical texts ...

I'll put it this way: anyone who uses Godself has thereby already demonstrated that they are not someone who has a traditional approach to biblical interpretation or the authority of Scripture.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/10/2023 18:39

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 17:10

Can I put in a word for the most vulnerable and marginalised piece of speech - the gerundive? It can't even be said as a single word.

Sure. Which is the word to be put?

DinnaeFashYersel · 18/10/2023 18:41

It's also National chocolate cup cake day.

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 18:46

@Ormally

On the subject of gerunds, I can't help thinking of these Ronald Searle cartoons - don't know if I am allowed to link in this way, but I will have a go.

Gerunds are fine as they are verbs acting as nouns (transnouns?). It's the poor gerundive that needs support. Ronald Searle shows one being cut dead by a gerund. And just because you need a whole phrase in English to create one.

International Gerundive Day Now!

MargotBamborough · 18/10/2023 18:46

Every day is trans day.

murasaki · 18/10/2023 18:48

I chose my insurance offer for university based entirely on the Searle hunting the gerund cartoon on the door of the faculty. It seemed entirely rational to my 17 year old self.

Wouldn't have done so now as they are one of the more captured places.

Ormally · 18/10/2023 18:53

@JanesLittleGirl What do we want? International Gerundive Day. When do we want it? -
(To be decided.)

JanesLittleGirl · 18/10/2023 19:08

Ormally · 18/10/2023 18:53

@JanesLittleGirl What do we want? International Gerundive Day. When do we want it? -
(To be decided.)

Grin Grin Grin

WickedSerious · 18/10/2023 19:20

Oh no,I missed it.

Again.

What a shame.

Never mind.

CorruptedCauldron · 18/10/2023 19:22

Fink · 18/10/2023 16:39

Quite. I've never understood what's supposed to be so triggering/ upsetting about being misgendered, or even dead named. I'm misgendered not infrequently, despite very definitely presenting as the sex that I am. I also get called by my sister's/ daughter's/ nephew's/ father's name, and at work by some random names. I've survived without any injury to my sense of self. Although I do wonder why so many people over the years have independently thought that my name is Rachel - a name which sounds nothing like my real one and isn't the name of anyone close to me. I also get Rebecca quite a lot. Apparently I come across as someone whose name starts with R. I am not. Nevertheless, I have survived this far.

You are not the only one who has been randomly Racheled! I have also been Claired. Neither name sounds like my actual name. I was misgendered repeatedly as a child. It hasn’t happened much in adulthood apart from that time a man said to me: “Big Issue, sir?” Instantly mortified and embarrassed, he was, while I was mildly amused. He’d seen someone tall out of the corner of his eye, wearing a big black coat, and had assumed I was a bloke. Nobody died or was literally genocided. Life went on. Ho/hum.

Villagetoraiseachild · 18/10/2023 19:23

Tediously, I was asked to share my pronouns recently, totally inappropriately, unnecessarily and potentially divisive to our voluntary group.

I contacted the organisation's hq and the man I spoke with calmly informed me that he didnt engage with it, but wasn't totally sure what the organisation's policy was, referring me further up the food chain.

Still waiting for a reply.
I'm really hoping it fades out sooner rather than later, it cannot be enforced and it's clunky, confusing and unsustainable. And honestly, who gives a shiny?

GrumpyPanda · 18/10/2023 19:38

Don't get all the sneering on here, I think it's an excellent idea. There aren't enough pronouns around. I'd like to direct everybody's attention to a particular problem area, namely the egregious absence on the English language of a formal 2nd person pronoun to parallel "Vous" or "Sie" in other European languages. This would also open up vast new opportunities for huffiness - get addressed with "you" rather than "*You"? "I don't recall us ever being nursery playmates."

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