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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
RethinkingLife · 18/10/2023 09:46

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 09:29

Dylan Mulvaney:

“And some people don’t see me as a woman at all. No matter how hard I try, or what I wear, or what I say, or what surgeries I get, I will never reach an acceptable version of womanhood by those hateful people’s standards."

The misogyny is very clear here.

Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972 and look at the closing lines of the quotation.

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us.

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt/page/8/mode/2up

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 09:50

Dylan Mulvaney is a world class misogynist and yet we have stephanee here remonstrating us for correctly sexing this male individual. And on another thread politicising a tragedy for their purpose to shame women.

The behaviour is very clear once you understand it. And then you can never unsee it. All birds of a feather are misogynists.

FizzyWizard · 18/10/2023 10:00

TheGreatATuin · 18/10/2023 08:20

My first day as a girl and I’ve already cried three times. I wrote a scathing email that I did not send, I ordered dresses online that I could not afford. And then, when someone asked how I was, I said I was fine when I wasn’t.’
These are Mulvaney's own words. Day three of being a girl was about embracing being a 'bimbo'.
Mulvaney is making millions out pure and unadulterated sexism, so no, its not 'mean' to criticise that.
Anyone who has even a minimal respect for the humanity of woman would be horrified by Mulvaney's depiction of womanhood.
Frankly, there's not much difference between how Mulvaney views women and how Andrew Tate does.
I'm sure as hell going to criticise both of them, because how they define women goes well beyond 'mean'. It's inhumane.

100% this.

ArabellaScott · 18/10/2023 10:40

RethinkingLife · 18/10/2023 09:46

Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972 and look at the closing lines of the quotation.

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us.

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt/page/8/mode/2up

'whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us.'

Men talking about the need to destroy women's boundaries.

ArabellaScott · 18/10/2023 10:41

Why does a.man feel the need to 'destroy' a woman's right or ability to reject him?

MargotBamborough · 18/10/2023 10:48

ArabellaScott · 18/10/2023 10:41

Why does a.man feel the need to 'destroy' a woman's right or ability to reject him?

Because the patriarchy is still the patriarchy even when it is wearing a dress.

TheDogthatDug · 18/10/2023 11:14

@RealityFan

Exactly. I bet Dylan can't believe how successful this has been.

SecondClassReturnToDottinghamPlease · 18/10/2023 12:16

Dylan started this for attention and fame and got far more than Dylan bargained for. $$$ and more publicity than you could shake a stick at. The fact there was more controversy over Bud Lite than the sports bra on a male frame just proves what a male-centric world we live in.

WickedSerious · 18/10/2023 12:25

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 09:29

Dylan Mulvaney:

“And some people don’t see me as a woman at all. No matter how hard I try, or what I wear, or what I say, or what surgeries I get, I will never reach an acceptable version of womanhood by those hateful people’s standards."

The misogyny is very clear here.

My heart breaks for the poor ,wee lamb.

Froodwithatowel · 18/10/2023 12:42

The whole 'I have done x and x and x and you bitches will not award me womanhood' always reminds me of the kind of bloke who thinks if he bought you a drink and you then refused to get your pants off and dtd you've ill treated him.

The only way to be a woman is to be born one. Sorry love.

mentalhealthq · 18/10/2023 13:00

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 09:29

Dylan Mulvaney:

“And some people don’t see me as a woman at all. No matter how hard I try, or what I wear, or what I say, or what surgeries I get, I will never reach an acceptable version of womanhood by those hateful people’s standards."

The misogyny is very clear here.

No, he won't ever reach an acceptable version of womanhood.

There are two reasons for this.

The first reason is very simple. Womanhood means being female. There is nothing in the world that can make Dylan female, so he will never be seen as a woman by those of us who believe a woman is a female person. I might as well moan that I could get a tail surgically attached to my backside and only speak in miaows and it still wouldn't be enough to make people see me as a cat. Well, no. Obviously not. Because I wouldn't be a cat.

The second reason is that, even if you agreed that womanhood is more of an identity, or a set of behaviours, or something socially constructed, the version of womanhood that Dylan has chosen to portray is offensive to most women. It depicts us as vapid, simpering idiots. Not serious businesswomen, politicians or athletes. There is nothing about the image Dylan chooses to project which is flattering to or indeed truthful about most women.

Dylan could have said, "I am transgender. I identify as a woman. I may not have female body parts but I feel very deeply that I am supposed to be a woman. I love women. Women are amazing. Oh hey, look at what Ruth Bader Ginsberg achieved in her life! Look at what Simone Biles has just achieved in Antwerp. Today I'm going to share some of my favourite books by female authors including JK Rowling, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Isabel Allende and Arundhati Roy. Who are your favourite female authors?"

When approached about doing a collaboration with Tampax, he could have said, "You know, I think you should ask someone who menstruates to be the face of your brand. It feels like appropriation for me to do this."

Or he could have said, "Hell yes, I'd love to do this collaboration with you but it needs to be centred around women and girls who menstruate. Could we maybe do a publicity campaign which also does some good, such as raising awareness of period poverty, or the fact that in some parts of the world women and girls are still confined to menstrual huts?"

He still wouldn't be the right face of that brand but he could have done that collaboration in a way that was much less weird and creepy. Instead his behaviour around it and his apparent obsession with tampons just screams the glaring obvious but we are supposed to not say anything and not complain because that would be transphobic.

For me, Dylan will never be an "acceptable woman" for the first reason: because he's not female. But I would accept him as a trans woman and use his preferred pronouns and be respectful of his identity if he projected a version of womanhood I could actually get on board with.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 13:05

mentalhealthq · 18/10/2023 13:00

No, he won't ever reach an acceptable version of womanhood.

There are two reasons for this.

The first reason is very simple. Womanhood means being female. There is nothing in the world that can make Dylan female, so he will never be seen as a woman by those of us who believe a woman is a female person. I might as well moan that I could get a tail surgically attached to my backside and only speak in miaows and it still wouldn't be enough to make people see me as a cat. Well, no. Obviously not. Because I wouldn't be a cat.

The second reason is that, even if you agreed that womanhood is more of an identity, or a set of behaviours, or something socially constructed, the version of womanhood that Dylan has chosen to portray is offensive to most women. It depicts us as vapid, simpering idiots. Not serious businesswomen, politicians or athletes. There is nothing about the image Dylan chooses to project which is flattering to or indeed truthful about most women.

Dylan could have said, "I am transgender. I identify as a woman. I may not have female body parts but I feel very deeply that I am supposed to be a woman. I love women. Women are amazing. Oh hey, look at what Ruth Bader Ginsberg achieved in her life! Look at what Simone Biles has just achieved in Antwerp. Today I'm going to share some of my favourite books by female authors including JK Rowling, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Isabel Allende and Arundhati Roy. Who are your favourite female authors?"

When approached about doing a collaboration with Tampax, he could have said, "You know, I think you should ask someone who menstruates to be the face of your brand. It feels like appropriation for me to do this."

Or he could have said, "Hell yes, I'd love to do this collaboration with you but it needs to be centred around women and girls who menstruate. Could we maybe do a publicity campaign which also does some good, such as raising awareness of period poverty, or the fact that in some parts of the world women and girls are still confined to menstrual huts?"

He still wouldn't be the right face of that brand but he could have done that collaboration in a way that was much less weird and creepy. Instead his behaviour around it and his apparent obsession with tampons just screams the glaring obvious but we are supposed to not say anything and not complain because that would be transphobic.

For me, Dylan will never be an "acceptable woman" for the first reason: because he's not female. But I would accept him as a trans woman and use his preferred pronouns and be respectful of his identity if he projected a version of womanhood I could actually get on board with.

You had me up until the pronoun use. Having seen too many of these activists use pronoun usage as leverage to get access to sports and single sex spaces, I have decided to no longer be complicit in that. I will not be rude, but I will not comply.

Froodwithatowel · 18/10/2023 13:28

I agree. Dylan is entitled to believe he is whatever he wishes. And so am I. If he does not try to enforce my enactment of his beliefs, he will not run the risk of hearing me set out mine. But if he does, including by plastering his beliefs all over the press with requirements for my participation, I am going to require the same respect towards my beliefs that he is requiring of me towards his. Not being co dependent and needing to meet my own needs by pandering to and enabling needy others.

HootyMcBooby76 · 18/10/2023 13:31

Stephannee · 18/10/2023 01:45

Was this absolutely necessary? Feels like being mean for the sake of being mean at this point.

THAT'S what you issue is? The "misgendering"?
Never mind that fat that this MAN has taken the utter piss out of women for years, has stolen awards, promotions and sponsorships that should have rightly gone to a female, has a YouTube channel that serves to indoctrinate teens and vulnerable people into the trans ideology, and is a general attention seeking wanker.

No.....YOU'RE issue is that we have rightly sexed this person.

Ricky Gervais joke about "HER penis, you bigot" when talking about the woman's fear of being raped, is not even a joke any more.
Seriously, give your head a wobble.

Who cares what utter knobs these people are, as long as we pretend that they are the opposite sex right?

This is a MAN, grifting hard, and ripping the piss out of women.
A MAN.

All the live long day.

Finteq · 18/10/2023 13:48

The fact there was more controversy over Bud Lite than the sports bra on a male frame just proves what a male-centric world we live in.

Think this just bears repeating

theDudesmummy · 18/10/2023 13:51

@mentalhealthq I very much liked your post. I have no problem with some women being "girly", dressing like Audrey Hepburn and squealing if they see an insect. Some are, that's fine, you do you etc. But why is it that very small subset of (mostly very young) women that seems to form the model for the prominent "transwomen" (i.e. men doing a performance of being a woman) that I see? If "transwomen" want to be inspiring while supposedly being women, why are they not trying to be more like actually inspirational women really are? (Clue, they don't know how, because they are...well, you know...)

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 18/10/2023 14:07

‘And some people don’t see me as a woman at all. No matter how hard I try, or what I wear, or what I say, or what surgeries I get…..’

Probably strike out ‘some’ and substitute ‘most’ , IRL. I really don’t accept that Keir Starmer, for example, really in his heart believes that some women have a penis. He thinks that some transwomen have a penis and since transwomen are women, that means blah blah waffle waffle… It’s mental gymnastics, not the sort of belief which is based on observing and interpreting the material 🌎 and acting on that interpretation so as not to be eaten by a sabre tooth tiger, or trampled by a water buffalo.

It might be said though that poor Dylan (1) is looking less and less like an easily identifiable male, although not more like an identifiable female.

(1) poor in the spiritual and emotional sense, not the financial sense, obviously.

Fenlandia · 18/10/2023 15:02

Dylan posing with tampons early on in his "girlhood" gave me the rage. Women owe him nothing.

Amazing piece on Mr Mulvaney
MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 18/10/2023 15:10

SecondClassReturnToDottinghamPlease:

Dylan started this for attention and fame and got far more than Dylan bargained for. $$$ and more publicity than you could shake a stick at. The fact there was more controversy over Bud Lite than the sports bra on a male frame just proves what a male-centric world we live in.

The outrage of having a gay guy where the tits and ass were supposed to be. If Bud Lite had had the foresight to pair him up with a nubile young woman, I suspect there would have been less kerfluffle.

If most men who claim to be women were homosexual, and if men had been subjected to anywhere near the levels of harassment that lesbians have, the last decade or so would have played out very differently, I suspect.

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 15:27

Fenlandia · 18/10/2023 15:02

Dylan posing with tampons early on in his "girlhood" gave me the rage. Women owe him nothing.

Oh, yes... but we are SO MEAN, according to stephanee for not using pronouns for this male individual who is such a very clear misogynist.

Stephannee · 18/10/2023 15:50

HootyMcBooby76 · 18/10/2023 13:31

THAT'S what you issue is? The "misgendering"?
Never mind that fat that this MAN has taken the utter piss out of women for years, has stolen awards, promotions and sponsorships that should have rightly gone to a female, has a YouTube channel that serves to indoctrinate teens and vulnerable people into the trans ideology, and is a general attention seeking wanker.

No.....YOU'RE issue is that we have rightly sexed this person.

Ricky Gervais joke about "HER penis, you bigot" when talking about the woman's fear of being raped, is not even a joke any more.
Seriously, give your head a wobble.

Who cares what utter knobs these people are, as long as we pretend that they are the opposite sex right?

This is a MAN, grifting hard, and ripping the piss out of women.
A MAN.

All the live long day.

Man, woman, whatever.

What is the purpose of this thread anyway? A lot of posters here are spending a lot of time and energy talking about Dylan Mulvaney whom I presume doesn't post here and has no interest on what people here say?

Are you hoping Dylan will stumble upon this thread and think "gosh, these people don't like me so I better change my life"?

fedupandstuck · 18/10/2023 15:56

So, a long winded way of saying "shut up wimms!".

Mulvaney is a public figure courting attention and publicity. Do you go on all the threads about public figures and tell them the thread is pointless as the particular person won't ever read it? Hmm.

Women are allowed to chat about public figures on a chat site. Suck it up, @Stephannee

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 15:57

The purpose of this thread? What is it to you what women discuss? Do you go around monitoring what women discuss on a daily basis?

Does your misogyny know no bounds?

Helleofabore · 18/10/2023 16:05

"Man, woman, whatever"

And here is more of that misogyny!

No. It is very important to know that this male individual is indeed male and has not changed sex yet has taken female people's opportunities and been celebrated, even by the fucking US president, as being a female.

And oh gosh.... women are discussing how misogynistic a male individual is, who earns a great deal of money and is a public and celebrated figure without permission from other male people! Glory be!

Oh dear... my shaming attempts have fallen on deaf ears, let me pivot and shame women for discussing public figures on a public forum. Oh dear, oh dear! Not sure you could shine any more light on your contempt for all female people on the threads you contribute to.

Swipe left for the next trending thread