What to do about nice but misguided people

[Nokoolaidherethanks]

Just seen a fb post from someone I'm not super close friends with but who I've always liked a lot in my dealings with her. She seems like a really lovely person and I've always got on well with her. She's posted Rishi Sunak's comment about being not being bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want. And she says that by saying this he's bullying "the most vulnerable members of society". FFS.

I don't know her well enough to comment. But would love to ask her what she thinks about rapists who conveniently transition in prison or before trial, or women losing out on sporting records to men, or how she'd feel if her daughter was exposed to a penis in a "female" changing room.

Do you ever challenge people like this?

I do ask them if they think convicted rapists should be in female prisons. Then wait. I think a lot of kind people just haven't really thought about it.

I wouldn't on Facebook, no.
I'd wait for an opportunity face to face where the conversation naturally arises.

On facebook, no. I try IRL.

Yeah, I don't generally bother on social media.

The only person I know at work who has put pronouns on her email is absolutely nice. Am certain she just thinks she is being inclusive.

Basically I've dealt with it by ignoring her and peaking the rest of the team.

If I asked her about men in women's prisons, she would then be really upset for the poor women and trying to square everyone's rights would distress her as she hasn't thought anything through. It's honestly not worth my energy.

I do now but mostly IRL.

Being on Mumsnet gave me so much background to all of this. I was initially a baffled lurker. Then I joined in (still rather confused)... Then there were 3 amazing threads where people "steel-manned". I had never come across this concept before but it was great: one person, who knew lots about all the different facets of gender identity belief, took on the role of the TRA answering the rest of us. But obviously it was all done in a robust debate way, not just shutting down debate by hurling abuse. I really found my feet doing this. I found a way to articulate my thoughts and the confidence to ask questions about stuff I didn't fully understand.
I then started debating stuff on here for real. I've been "troll debated" a couple of times by stealth TRAs but my position has remained the same: if there is actual substance to what's being talked about, I'll stick with it. I've now taken this philosophy in to Twitter so that I can push for change in the area that I'm most passionate about: the damage being done to kids.
In parallel, I'm having lots of conversations in real life. So far with a 100% peak rate, inclusing pro-peakers who come back for more and we're taking it slowly. I'm talking to health professionals, school, friends.
My "style" is always the same: I never challenge anyone on the belief of a gendered soul. I would never challenge anyone on their religious beliefs. I'm an atheist but I don't go around saying God doesn't exist or people are delusional for believing in God. That would be very offensive and confrontational. Also, what would it achieve other than people getting angry with each other and not listening to what the other then went on to say? Instead I talk about the impact of someone's belief in gender identity. I wouldn't put up with compelled spelling of God with a capital letter (pronouns analogy), even though I chose to do it. Nor would I let a law be passed that we all need to go to church on Sundays or pray before meals in restaurants without a big fight. The belief isn't the issue IMO.

Ps hopefully a useful angle OP. I appreciate it's a little tangential from your initial post.

I have a live and let live friend.

She disapproved of my GC views until I askee her if it was fair thar women were losing out on sport. Or safeguarding. Or prisons etc.

She agreed wholeheartedly with those.
These people just haven’t thought it through.

@BonfireLady , you're right when you say, "The belief isn't the issue."

What does seem to be the issue is more the seeing of belief in gender identity as what it is: a belief in just the same way (and with the same status) as other beliefs such as belief in ghosts, gods, angels, paranormal auras, the healing powers of crystals, and so on.

We don't allow believers in angels or auras special access to children in our schools (although we do allow such believers to set up their own schools, given reasonable safeguards). Nor do we allow such beliefs to influence our laws or our wider society (although, again, we don't stand in the way of such believers getting together to express their beliefs to one another and so on). We don't sneer at people who believe things we don't (at least in public). We treat people politely, however daft we may think them.

People believe all sorts of different things. We rub along. You want to believe you have a guardian angel? Fine. You want to believe you have a gender identity? Fine, again. Just don't expect the rest of us to behave in line with your beliefs ... and don't expect our schools to teach your beliefs as though they are fact, or our laws to be based on your beliefs.

We escaped societally-mandated religion some time ago. We should not allow our society now to mandate this new gender-identity belief.

"Nice but misguided" people? Smile, OP, and accept them as they are. Keep the kid gloves on. But if they start to support the imposition of beliefs such as in god or gender identity or whatever on us or our children, we need to take the gloves off, as appropriate.

Just accidentally deleted my longer message so long story short - decent, left-wing people support minority and disadvantaged groups - they've been told to now support trans people. So they do.

I did. "Bathroom bills" were to appeal to Trump supporters - I'm a better person than that!

Then Lia Thomas. Someone who clearly had male-born advantages beating women, taking their records and prizes and no one was allowed to say anything!!!! I've seen sexism before!

I came here and stayed when I realised the impact of relaxed transgender policies on women in prisons, criminal justice situations, hospitals, refuges etc. Not to mention surgically altering teenagers.

If you want to challenge nice people, ask if they've thought about how they would manage transgender prisoners?

I always appreciate your insightful posts @BonfireLady - especially as I came at all this from the same angle of interest as you (alerted by disbelief and confusion around what was happening with child transition)

I wouldn’t challenge it on Facebook but I am tempted every time someone trots this out to put ‘Oh X (their name) you are a very lovely person’ because that’s what you’re broadcasting when you put such trite, meaningless mantras on social media. You’re basically not thinking, you’re just virtue signalling.

*She disapproved of my GC views until I askee her if it was fair thar women were losing out on sport. Or safeguarding. Or prisons etc.

She agreed wholeheartedly with those.
These people just haven’t thought it through.*

My TWAW friend completely throws women under the bus when I ask her this. Some people are too blind to see.

We escaped societally-mandated religion some time ago. We should not allow our society now to mandate this newgender-identity belief.

Exactly this (and the rest of your comment too @gidabo ).
Again, hopefully not too off topic but when I spoke to my daughters' school about the LGBT book display that was front and central in the school entrance in September, covered in flags etc, I questioned why books which positioned gender identity belief as fact were given such prominent positioning. I opened a few up and showed where things were written as a truth, yet were not in line with my own belief in the immutability of sex. I don't force anyone to share my belief as a truth, so I don't expect anyone to do that to my child, or anyone else's child. Suffice to say, the books were all taken away that day. They got taken to the deputy head's office (who I met with on a different day - I'm working with the school on their PHSE materials) so that he could understand more about how all of this is positioned.
It really does come down to whether or not we accept compelled belief as a truth.
Another useful example I find in conversation, is whether we would accept transubstantiated wine as real blood in blood banks. It's part of the Catholic belief that it really has changed physically in to blood.
I am very happy for Catholics to believe this but I would gently, with increasing robustness as needed, steer someone away from making this NHS policy if it came down to it. My argument would centre on the fact that not everyone believes this, rather than whether they are correct or not.
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Thank you. That's very kind.
I've been on Twitter more than here lately (I can't wait to step away from that Twitter once the medical scandal is fully out in the open... I'm not a social media fan at all 😬😁) but it's been a particularly toxic place over the last few days WRT the news in the Middle East etc... so I'm back in for a proper look through all the threads.
There are some incredible posters who have been here for years. @ArabellaScott you're one I admire hugely and from whom I've learned a lot. I have no idea how you've been at this with patience and tenacity for so long! There are many others too. Some change names so it's not always easy to know who is who.
This particular thread is interesting because I think so many people can relate. Hopefully a few lurkers will find it. It's exactly the kind of thread I'd have looked for in my early days.

Brilliant post @BonfireLady

The only thing I'd query is the not challenging a belief in gendered souls. I totally get what you mean about leaving others to their beliefs in gender identity (or different religions), but the problem I've had IRL is they assume that I have a gendered soul too (and hence must declare my pronouns/c*s privilege/trans allyship).

Religious people mostly understand that other people have different beliefs or none. Gender-special people assume that gender identity is a universal part of human existence, and if you've never thought about your gender identity, it's because it matches your body! In a way they have to push this view because of the radical changes to society and law that TRAs are demanding.

You need to distinguish between people who are trans and people who want to exploit the loopholes trans rights laws create.

She's not wrong that being trans makes you vulnerable - people do double takes, you're at higher risk of assault and being yelled at in the street, rejection from your family and friends, harder to get work, it might be harder to access services eg find doctors who are sympathetic. All in all, not good for mental health.

Most trans people aren't interested in elite sports and will never go near a prison. I agree that there need to be restrictions and safeguards in those areas. But that doesn't counter the fact that people who identify as trans very often have a hard time of it.

I don't think concern about how trans laws might impact women means you have to feel scorn or hate or even distaste about trans people.

Depending on who I'm talking to and what the conversation is about, I'll either ignore someone telling me I've got a gendered soul i.e. that they see me as someone who identifies as a woman. Or I'll challenge it head on and say that they are welcome to believe I do but I don't believe that myself. It all depends on who I'm talking to and what the conversation is about.
I talk to several trans people or parents of trans identifying children. In those situations I'll let it go without comment. But if I'm talking to someone about my own belief in the immutability of sex, without pushing that belief as a truth of course, I'll make it very clear that I don't identify as a woman. Nor do I identify as white-skinned or blonde etc. I just am those things. They are all just physical descriptors.... according to my belief.

@fearfuloffluff completely agree about separating out the different groups. I feel we talk at cross purposes and when I explain this way it seems to click.

Yes, context is all and definitely best done IRL.

@gidabo

We don't allow believers in angels... special access to children in our schools

Sure we do. Christianity is officially promoted in our schools, although a lot of them today may not be following the law.

As we allow parents an opt-out, and parents have the right to indoctrinate their own children, I don't see it as a big deal, but opinions will differ.

Nor do we allow such beliefs to influence our laws or our wider society

Depends what you mean. In principle, if enough people became Catholics, yes they are allowed to force their beliefs on abortion on everyone else.

And some people could argue that the ethics of our society are still strongly influenced by Christianity even when we have largely abandoned the religion.

We still officially celebrate Christian holidays of course. And I think in England we have a state religion.

But anyway, I agree with you that we shouldn't allow schools to indoctrinate children with "progressive" ideas about gender identity. I believe that's already supposed to be against the law, but many schools may not be following it.

We need better guidance to schools obviously, but maybe also a system where parents / pupils can report their school for an investigation. Teachers do need to be potentially disciplined.

Agreed.
There are people with a genuine distress about their body (gender dysphoria), there are people who are genuinely fearful that there is a "trans genocide" (because they've been whipped up in fear as useful screaming pawns and footsoldiers), there are people for whom "trans" is how they currently feel to make sense of themselves and where they fit in the world (similar to being a goth, emo, hippy etc etc).

And there are AGPs who are very adept at manipulating others so that they can slip their fetish under the radar in to law, education and healthcare.

Hmmmmm. This will get deleted....

If this ends up as a duplicate, apologies to all...

Agreed.
There are people with a genuine distress about their body (gender dysphoria), there are people who are genuinely fearful that there is a "trans genocide" (because they've been whipped up in fear as useful screaming pawns and footsoldiers), there are people for whom "trans" is how they currently feel to make sense of themselves and where they fit in the world (similar to being a goth, emo, hippy etc etc).

And there are people who are very adept at manipulating others so that they can slip their fetish under the radar in to law, education and healthcare.

Remember, the code word for AGP is 'Malaga Airport '